I know what role a company board should play, but what role is it playing at EFFC? Does Willie tell Sid or the Board anything about what he is up to? Sid certainly doesn't seem to see any need to discuss anything with Willie. Do the rest of the Board get a look in? OK - I know some of them wouldn't understand much anyway, but that just makes matters worse rather than better. Not a healthy situation at all. Dangerous and not the way to go forward.

Worse - what happens if (and we have be accept that it's possible) we have a terrible start next season and promotion quickly goes out of the window? Would Willie and his money stick around and does the Board have a contingency plan for that? OK again - you would have to explain to some of them what a contingeny plan is! But you can see what I'm getting at.

Good points, TTK. We have plenty of indians around the Board but precious few who could pass as chiefs. One of the things that marks football clubs out as different from any other limited companies is that only in football do the largest shareholders then take over the direction and operational management of the club. Sometimes it works; sometimes it doesn't.

The position of our Club at Board level seems to be that we have moved from having a malevolent dictator to having two fairly benevolent dictators who may or may be in tune with each other. No one else on the Board would have the nouse or the guts to question or criticise. We need a couple of articulate and able new directors to provide the necessary checks and balances.

Aye right!

Maybe it's time to have a fan's rep and finally appointing the associate directors who were previously directors and were "got rid off" or resigned because they did not agree with the previous chairman. It would be better having them rather than a Hamilton who is only a yes man for whoever is in the driving seat.

Check out Aftn posting from last year. This is a post over a month After Mr C said a Trust member would be on board at some stage. How long is "at some stage"? It has been said that this will be by the start of the season. But if you read below the idea was that it would happen at last year's AGM.

Why is this constantly being raised? Because until you get it into your head it will not happen unless you fight for it. The situation at the club has not really changed, you have still a devious person in charge but the PR front man is much better


AGM

The AGM is now only a month away and as I said several months ago it will give an interesting insight into the the new regime's agenda and "promises" for the future of the club.

I would hope that shareholders are going to obtain the openness that they were led to expect. Two items immediately come to mind that can be done to ensure attendance at the AGM is fruitful:

1. Request of full accounts in the expected case that only abbreviated accounts will be published. This I think requires 10% of shareholders and needs to be done within a time limit.

2. Is there to be a proposal put forward to be included on the agenda for a fan's representative on the board and is support being gained for this proposal to be achieved.

Now I am not going into a conspiracy theory syndrome but think it is only wise to do all possible to safeguard the fans interest. It may be that the openness promised and the ultimate of a fan's representive are already planned but if we sit back and wait for it to happen it probably will not and another year will have been wasted in developing the club into the great club it could be.


Stewart



Nov 22nd, 2006 - 3:16 PM Re: AGM

I would fully expect openness and honesty from the new board and a place for a trust representative on the board. This was mentioned by Collumbine at the start of the season. The associate directors were appointed with some ease and given the Trust's support for the new board financially and otherwise, there should be no problems.
Email: bayviewultra@yahoo.com


igor

Nov 22nd, 2006 - 3:23 PM Re: AGM

Yes here's hoping that everything goes smoothly and i'd fully expect a trust rep to be invited on to the board.

To the 3 posters above (probably the same person) -


Awa ye go and bile yer heads!

I did beleive that a Trust rep would be elected on to the board and still do, however I was dissapointed it didn't happen at The AGM. I see no obstacles now which would prevent a Trust director being appointed before the season starts.We shall see.

That's an interesting post from igor, is it not?

Well, we're past Midsummer's Day (although you wouldn't know it from the weather) and still not a cheep.

The Trust clearly don't give a toss about board representation so it looks like it's a case of hope and pray that all the warnings that have been issued by many people both here and on P&B were just scaremongering.

As a poster above has said, with two apparently independent dictators doing what they damn well like, anything could happen....and probably will.

What's the timescales now, TOC? Maybe they meant NEXT summer....

You been along to that trust meeting yet Mole?

I didn't think I would ever get to the point of agreeing with Told You So and Mole, but they are, sadly, completely right on several points:-

1. The Board isn't functioning as such, and in fact hardly seems to exist except on paper. Willie and Sid just go their own ways and splash their money around as they individually see fit. Welcome in many ways, but not how it should be, let's face it.

2. There isn't a hope in hell of the Trust getting a seat on the "Board". What difference would it make anyway?

3. Quite disgraceful, is it not, that all the former directors who opposed or resisted Brown are merely on the bench as associate directors, whilst Hamilton, Hain and Stevenson, active supporters of Brown are still directors. I believe that the last AGM made it necessary for all directors to stand annually for re-election so there needs to be an early assurance that each of them will be turfed off then.

All of this is something all supporters need to take an interest in. Sid and his dosh won't be around for too long, and Willie for even less time probably. What kind of club are they creating for the future? We should have come out of the gloom of the Brown era into a more open and accountable regime. But have we?

" The Trust clearly don't give a toss about board representation "

I am on the Trust board Mr Mole and I think you'll find that statement is incorrect.

Like everyone else I am obviously disappointed that this has not happened yet. But any disappointment present in the support should not dampen the enthusiasm of on the field matters, where great investment and ambition has been shown.

A Trust member on the board, remains for me, an integral first step in securing the future of East Fife for its fans. This is something that simply has to happen.

In my opinion, there are two ways to go about resolving this issue.

1. The Trust arranges to meet its members to discuss these matters and collect information. They then ask to meet the board and put forward their request for a Trust member to be invited on to the board within the next month.

2. We have a number of threads on this forum, with posters calling themselves “confused”, “worried”, “told you so” etc, which can whip up hysteria and allow creeps like The Mole to use the situation for his own personal advantages and point scoring. Much will b said, nothing will be done. The Mole is all talk, and after about a year of posting, bear in mind he has done NOTHING, despite countless opportunities to meet with the trust and get involved. As I said before, he’s interested in crisis, not progress.

I suppose it all comes down to who wants which, ask yourselves that question.

Stewart I disagree with your assuption that you see no obstacle to a trust rep being appointed before the new season. There is a great obstacle in that the powers that be do not want it and will never agree until some pressure can be brought to change this. I do agree that the trust do want a rep. After all it is in their constitution, isn't it? It boils down to how strongly they want it and what steps they are willing to take to achieve one of their foremost objectives.

Igor we need to separate on the field achievements from the future of the club as a whole. To this end I am suggesting a much greater involvement by the fans in the running of the club, with the first step being a fan's rep on the board. However this first step is becoming a giant leap as it taking so long since it was first "agreed" by the dep chairman with no progess.

"A Trust member on the board, remains for me, an integral first step in securing the future of East Fife for its fans. This is something that simply has to happen.

I suppose it all comes down to who wants which, ask yourselves that question."

Your last sentence says it all but if you are expecting the board to just say welcome, don't hold your breath.

We should also be fighting for 3 of the associate directors to be appointed. There might be some backbone on the board then who would support our request. You may say that it not our business but I would argue that for a greater invovement in the club we should be pushing for effective directors on the board.

Some valid points TYS, I believe a trust meeting firstly with the members, and then with the BOD, could help move things along.

Curious I remain -

curious about why Willie and Sid are there at all, if it isn't just ego trips all round?

curious about just how all these new players are being paid for?

curious about just how serious the crisis will be if we fail again to get promoted, and what is the Board's Plan B for that? (I know, the very idea of a plan forming in the mind of the Board - what a hoot!)

Like everyone else, curious about why so many of Broon's gang are still on the Board? Because they're anyone's poodle, I suppose, but what a qualification for being a director!

A Trust meeting? The same meetings where about 12 people turn up.
It`s kinda getting a bit boring now,but at least the matchday programme is something to channel energies into.

"A Trust meeting? The same meetings where about 12 people turn up."

Yeh cause it's far more productive slagging off people on a message board, that's bound to get things moving.

Why have a meeting with 12 people, when you can come on the forum and pretend to be 12 people eh.

"told u so", "curious" etc seem awfie concerned about the EFFC board.

Why does it matter and what can they do about things if they don't like what they see? What are their preferred objectives for the club and how would they achieve them? Surely they're not the type of chaps (or chapesses) who just try to stir things up!

The issue of a Trust board member was not a priority when it was set up.The priority was to ensure that supporters could feel involved with and play their part in supprting the club. It can be argued that this has happened - as I speak I'm sure the club has queues of folk offering to help out in response to their recent request. Aye right!!!

Why the concerm about WG and SC and what their motives and intentions are? I'm willing to bet thery're the same as any business person's - to make money and have fun.

A valiant attempt at obfuscation Eugene. A Trust board member might not have been a priority when the Trust was set up but it landed firmly on the agenda over the past year.

As for your willingness to bet that WG and SC motives and intentions are to make money and have fun - can you name just one businessman who has made money out of a small football club without selling land? I bet you can't.

And if they sell some of the club's land and make some money (to pay back what they're shelling out in paypackets), as long as it doesn't affect the club then I couldn't give a shit.

And if they sell land to recoup their outlay on the team, then they are not making money. Thanks for your contribution to the debate all the same.

"As long as it doesn't affect the club"

No, no, of course it won't affect the club. Selling its only real asset. No, of course that won't affect East Fife.

"As for your willingness to bet that WG and SC motives and intentions are to make money and have fun - can you name just one businessman who has made money out of a small football club without selling land? I bet you can't."

As most SFL clubs are private limited companies it's rather hard to know who has made what profit out of what.

What I do believe - and the research my partners and I did when we were seriously considering a bid for the club some time ago backed this up - is that EFFC can be run as a profitable business through developing rather than selling its land assets along with creating a few other income streams.

But you'll know better on the simple basis of believing otherwise.

Any facts in among that lot Eugene? I couldn't see any. Nor could I see any acknowledgement that a board member is one of the Trust's priorities. Or the identity of a businessman who has bought into a small club and made money out of it without selling land.

I see plenty of sand-dancing though. Nice, if that's your thing.

Eugene - you could give Alistair Campbell a real run for his money. As another poster says, your utterings have no basis in fact and like the rest of us, you deal in opinion.

And opinion is very important. The Trust, in my opinion, has failed to engage the club on behalf of its members (how many by the way TOC?). Warnings have been given about Sid and Willie Gray, both of whom are just playing with our club.

I had high hopes that the fans would get together and at last, take initiative. But no. The mound protests served a purpose, but since then nothing.

We have apologists hanging around protecting their own positions, self-created positions at that, hiding behind their good guy image. Reality is though without the fans the club is nothing.

It's all stuff and bluster. The trust guys have taken the perfect vehicle to ensure accountability and wasted the opportunity. Broon's gone, so everything is allright.

I look at what's been achieved elsewhere and frankly I'm jealous. So what can we do? Plenty. But it's up to the members, and potential members, to lobby for the required change. Will that happen? Unlikely. Why? Because the impetus is not there, or indeed the will.

The Supporters Club have more influence and from what I've seen and heard, don't like the trust model - again that will stem from protecting their own positions.

Why is no one coming forward to help as per the recent plea? Easy answer that one. Fife fans are all talk. Me included I'm afraid.

It's like not voting.You get the government you deserve.

And what about the FFFF? They've gone underground.

I said SOME of the clubs land. Not all of it. If they could make a decent sum selling SURPLUS land, then why not?

I get the feeling there are some posters on here who couldn't see the bright side if you paid them.

FFS, compare the club with how it was 18 months ago. Which situation would you rather be in?

Gray and Collumbine might not be in it for the love of the club, but if they put a successful team on the pitch then good luck to them.

"The Supporters Club have more influence and from what I've seen and heard, don't like the trust model - again that will stem from protecting their own positions."

I spent weeks finishing that 5th scale Bismark Airfix kit & they don't like it!!! FFS is there no pleasing some people??

We are getting away from our priority here. All right I understand the concerns re Sid and oor Wullie and the possible land sale. The way to help correct this imbalance of power ie fans v shareholders/board is to move towards a better director representation on the board including a fan's rep. That way the inappropriate sale of land or other actions which may be worrying can be given proper debate and maybe stalled.

The club belongs to the fans. It was fans who originally set up the club because they believed in the prospect of a local club that could be supported by locals. It was not set up to gain power or make money and the original articles had a clause restricting the amount of shares one person could have. Thus it would not have a, now 10yr old?, girl dictating the odds at our club.

Now is the time for the fans to gain the club back. This is in the constitution of the Trust (insofar as they state a greater involvement etc) and really is the only avenue to achieve this objective. Like me some of you are disappointed in the progress achieved.

Well the remedy is in your hands. You can go along to a meeting and kick up hell as to why nothing is happening. Mind you that take guts to stand up and tell an overwhelming majority that they are going about things the wrong way to try and sway a vote.

However there really does not need to be a vote as the Trust board were voted in to carry out it's constitution and should be taking action to achieve this. For example how many letters have been written to EFFC board for them to explain the progress on their "commitment" to appoint a fan's rep. and what was their reply?

It is your trust but unfotunately like many democratic institutions it rules by apathy. If you do not attend meetings and/or are not willing to stand for appointment to it's board you will allow it to become a stagnant non-entity! This board although I feel has achieved some success needs a kick up the ass to try and get things moving. To this I would say it is as much the fault of the members as of the board itself. It is in your hands.

"The club belongs to the fans."

Sorry but it doesn't - it belongs to the shareholders.

Other than that I agree with you.

When I called the first meeting to see if there was interest in setting up a Trust - and remember this was before all the Brown stooshie - there was a good turnout - almost 100. Those present enthusistically embraced the idea.

At the time I stressed and have done so repeatedly that a Trust is a long-term committment (tho' I indicated my own involvement would be limited)and that it would only work if lots of supporters kept being involved.

This has not happened. The Trust Board have put huge amounts of time in to trying to run it but have achieved less than they wanted to, largely through lack of support from members. I accept that the situation was complicated by the whole anti-Brown protest and this in effect took away a year plus.

It's my great regret that Brown took the anti-Trust position he did. It has led to the dissipation of the energies and enthusiasm that were present at the start.

So what's the position now?

It's my guess that most supporters don't bother too much about ownership issues but do have a vague wish to help the club. How this wish shouild be channelled is a challenge - the Trust may provide a route itself or it may be that the Suppoprter's Club and Trust together or possibly even the SC itself.

Let's not forget that the intention behind both these organisations is the same - to help the club. Each can prosper but only with the support of members.

I'm not sure what's best but I do believe that if the only involvement an individual has is being critical on this forum then that's not much help.

TYS, you bring up many good points, but as Eugene says its not enough if they are merely limited to internet forum discussions. I think too many folk want things done, but they expect others to do things for them. If you really want something, start the ball rolling, like minded people will quickly become involved.

Take the bull by the horns, write to the trust and the board, find out the situation and then take it from there.

Whatever happened to leadership? Even if the people in office at the Trust cannot push their own agenda, where are they? Where is the figurehead? Is it Eugene? Is it the Invisible Man? Is it Henry, the mild-mannered janitor?

Does the Trust REALLY know what people want? And I don't just mean its members. Potential members too. As has been suggested here, who is going to toddle along to a Trust meeting and tell the board that it's not working?

The Trust needs direction. As this thread shows, there are people out there who are ready to be led. Yes, yes, yes, we all know that the board is there to represent ALL of the members, but that is the quickest way to achieve paralysis. That's where we are at the moment.

It is unrealistic to expect the membership to attend meetings en masse. Has the Trust considered putting a series of proposals to members about what they want to achieve, that could be rated on a scale of priorities? Has the Trust invited members to give their views on the issues that affect the club in anything other than a meeting format? How about email? Or an online questionnaire? Email is a very effective tool and it costs nothing to use.

Communication with members has to be improved. But that in itself needs someone on the Trust board to take a lead.

I try never to get involved in this debate but one very important point needs addressed here. The mild-mannered janitor was called Penry.

Eugene you are legally correct that the shareholders own the club but I believe that the fans also "own" the club in that if they did not support the team the club would die. The situation in football now is that large shareholders for non-altruistic reasons can also bring about it's demise and that is why I push for a greater involvement by the fans to reduce this risk.

There is also a defensive attitude by you and others to criticism on this forum. I did think that this was an open forum for fans to express their feelings and as such I find it refreshing that this is so in that ideas can flow freely and hopefully the good ones be taken up. Although I comment I try to do it in a constructive fashion with suggestions for improvement but it appears they are dismissed out of hand just because they are expressed here.

If I or someone raised the same thoughts at a members meeting would they receive the same dismissal. Probably because people do not like to be citicised and fight against the idea that things could be improved if they do not fall in with their own thoughts.

As the Trust feels it is inappropriate to answer the questions raised on this forum I would propose that at the next members meeting the question be raised of what has been done since last year to achieve the Trust's objective and the club's "commitment" of having a fans Rep on the board of EFFC?

Why the Trust feels this forum or (even their own website)is not the place to keep the fans informed seems to me an inappropriate response.

I wouldn't agree I'm being defensive but if you see it that way fair enough.

My basic point is quite simple. No democratic body such as a Suppoerters' Trust can operate effectively without the active involvement of its members - the main word being "active".

If that doesn't happen no amount of criticism or communication will make a blind bit of difference. And it hasn't happened in the last year.

Oh and maybe I should have made it clear that I'm speaking on my own behalf here, not the Trust.

Could this be some sort of ego trip for Trust reps?

Steve wrote : "Could this be some sort of ego trip for Trust reps? "

Yes! Of course it is! But so what? We need direction.

Eh no its no!
There's been a lot of hard work over the last 2 years & due to the intransigence of the previous EF Chairman, a lot of it wasted.
IMO the Trust Rep on the board will happen & sooner rather than later! I understand that it was proposed by the current Chairman that it would be in place for early in the forthcoming season & is still on the agenda.
Has anyone considered that there may be financial implications for the the Trust or even the Trust Rep if they become Directors?
The next Trust meeting will probably be the most important ever but if apathy rules then who really cares?
Members must take an active role or the Trust will get nowhere even with a seat of the EFFC Board!

Okay 007. Sure there has been a lot of hard work. But do Trust members outside the few on the board actually know this?

I daresay very few members HAVE considered the financial implications for the Trust of a seat on the board. But what has the Trust done to inform them, or communicate with them? Does your rank and file membership - and those who might knew if they could see signs of activity - have any idea what is going on?

Don't turn to apathy in search for a place to lay the blame. The Trust board has to generate interest. Lead your members. Guide your members. Show direction. Where is the figurehead? Who represents the Trust? I don't know. Willie Gray is clearly the chairman of EFFC. Who is the leader of the Trust?

Don't wait for the members to get active. They are waiting for you to show them the way ahead.

If we are being honest,I am sure that the majority of Trust members couldn`t give a toss about having a seat on the Board.

Michael Glazedeyes YOU ARE THE MAN! Come lead us, teach us, show us the light & leadership you obviously possess! Lead the faithful into the promised land that is Glazeville.
You will find however that there are not many sheep among the Faithful.
YOU my friend are the one who will end up with egg on your face because the Trust will come through! The good people at the helm will ensure that!

"Don't turn to apathy in search for a place to lay the blame. The Trust board has to generate interest. Lead your members. Guide your members. Show direction. Where is the figurehead? Who represents the Trust? I don't know. Willie Gray is clearly the chairman of EFFC. Who is the leader of the Trust?"

If you care to e-mail eftrustsec@yahoo.co.uk we'll send your application form off to you Michael then you can find out the answer to all your questions.