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Happy 4th of July!!

Happy 4th of July!!

To all Americans on the forum and freedom lovers everywhere…

“In Congress, July 4, 1776

The unanimous Declaration of the thirteen united States of America

When in the Course of human events it becomes necessary for one people to dissolve the political bands which have connected them with another and to assume among the powers of the earth, the separate and equal station to which the Laws of Nature and of Nature's God entitle them, a decent respect to the opinions of mankind requires that they should declare the causes which impel them to the separation.

We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness.

--That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed,

--That whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new Government, laying its foundation on such principles and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their Safety and Happiness.”

Re: Happy 4th of July!!

This is a better link:

http://chnm.gmu.edu/declaration/polone.html

Re: Happy 4th of July!!

Happy 4th of July, Mike C, I am a freedom lover but will not take off my hat for the American people on this occasion, the declaration in congress of the 4th of July 1776 is as dated as when it was made.
Are Americans really proud of there system? I don't think so. The present US government, unauthorized involvement in IRAQ, war crimes in Vietnam, Has anybody read the released documents of the tricks played by the CIA, it makes the KGB pretty civilized.
What about the recent pardon of one of the Vice Presidents mates. Do we call this the democratic process.
I cannot understand why people call themselves Polish Americans, they are either Polish or Americans.
Why not say I am a American born in Poland.
Sorry Mike C for starting on a negative note but its good to speak the truth!

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I've never really understood all this fuss about American independence. Plenty were more than happy with British governance. Wasn't it just a few aggressive types with guns wanting more of the pie for themselves ?

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Hans!! Really!!

In fact there were quite a few who were happy with the status quo - they went to Canada, no doubt in the pursuit of happiness. We forget perhaps that so much of America was real frontier territory in those days, when the Founding Fathers (British radicals all of them) went to sign the Declaration of Independance, their journey lasted weeks - there were almost no roads. News travelled slowly, Britain was months away by sea, and the settlers in America were a very special type of person - when they created their country they were stepping out into the unknown. Brave.

Whatever people think about this, that or the other political/economic/military issue, the USA is a nation, even the first nation, founded on freedon and democracy.

To quote from an American guy on another (unrelated) forum that I use:

"After 231 years we're still working on it and don't yet have it quite right. but as a whole aren't we better off for the Great American Experiment?

Happy 4th of July!"

Re: Happy 4th of July!!

Happy 4th of July.

What happened, was it your birthday?
Happy Birthday.

Re: Happy 4th of July!!

Offbeat, it is good to speak one’s opinions, but as to the truth…

Are Americans proud; yes: http://www.harrisinteractive.com/news/allnewsbydate.asp?NewsID=815

Authorization for Iraq;
International: http://www.fas.org/news/un/iraq/sres/sres0678.htm
And, http://www.fas.org/news/un/iraq/sres/sres0686.htm
Domestically: http://www.c-span.org/resources/pdf/hjres114.pdf

Vietnam:
1) War is hell
2) More Vietnamese and Cambodians died in the 14 months following U.S. withdrawal than in the previous 14 years. By the way, the Chinese, between 1979 and 1984, destroyed more Vietnamese villages than all U.S. actions from 1960 through 1973.

CIA vs. KGB: Consider what the CIA was opposing and the KGB supporting; http://www.digitalsurvivors.com/archives/communistbodycount.php

Lewis Libby: His incorrect recollection of the sequence of telling people something they already knew did not match the incorrect recollection of the sequence by people who already knew what they were told, and the communicated information was non-criminal. Mr. Libby has not been pardoned but the incarceration component of his penalty is commuted. By way of comparison Bill Clinton lied under oath to a grand jury to conceal his own criminal activity.

Why do people call themselves Polish Americans? Because the United States is a pluralistic society that is the cumulative composite of its components; those components that have positively contributed to the cumulative whole are proud of their contribution. Over time the components and their contributions become assimilated into the composite whole to the point of being non-differentiated.

Re: Happy 4th of July!!

>>Why do people call themselves Polish Americans? Because the United States is a pluralistic society that is the cumulative composite of its components; those components that have positively contributed to the cumulative whole are proud of their contribution. Over time the components and their contributions become assimilated into the composite whole to the point of being non-differentiated.

I'm sure there's an answer in there somewhere!

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I hold you and the others in such high esteem that I am confident that you will find and comprehend it.

Re: Happy 4th of July!!

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Offbeat – it’s all good. Thanks to the Founding Fathers, US Marines, and the CIA we live in a free country.

You are entitled to your own opinion

Re: Happy 4th of July!!

And Mr Bush

Re: Happy 4th of July!!

Freedom lovers.

Tee hee
Aw, that's so cute!

Re: Happy 4th of July!!

sarcasm is not neccessary. You Brits have your own holidays, we have ours.

Oh wait - the biggest American holiday happens to be the day American farmers told the British King to go f**k himself

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"Oh wait - the biggest American holiday happens to be the day American farmers told the British King to go f**k himself"

Err, weren't they actually British farmers and merchants?
And like expat businesspeople everywhere, rather averse to paying excessive tax. And as all immigrants to Poland should shout from the rooftops, their rallying cry was "No Taxation Without Representation!"

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"Err, weren't they actually British farmers and merchants?"

Not quite. Most of the signers of the Declaration were born in the colonies and proudly considered themselves 'Colonials'. Thomas Jefferson and Benjamin Franklin spent half their lives in Paris and were greatly influenced by the French Revolution.

The 'British' farmers and merchants (Loyalists) sided with the British and most went back to England or Canada after Americans won their freedom.

Re: Happy 4th of July!!

Born there or not, I suspect they considered themselves British. Just as Polish-Americans cherish their Polish identity.

Although "Alternative History" is at best interesting and at worst futile, it's worth speculating how history might have turned out if (the seriously ill) George IIl and his family were a bit more capable, his ministers a bit less stupid & greedy (they seriously underestimated the revolutionaries' abilities & determination) and France a bit less unstable. The world would be a different shape today.

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IF your aunt had balls she'd be an uncle

I do agree that it makes for interesting speculation

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Worth mentioning that we so often forget the ordinary British person's support for the revolutionaries - there was a lot of goodwill from the oppressed industrial masses. And we forget James Paine's influence. Like Jefferson & Franklin, he too was influenced by the revolutionary spirit in France.

Franklin's big hero was Voltaire, who Giertych will NEVER put on the school reading list. Anyone interested in the Franklin/Voltaire thing might google their names plus the phrase "nine sisters".

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Franlkin was, without a doubt, one of the most brilliant minds in history and the most infuential Founding Father.

His famous farmer's alamnac is still published and widely read in the US to this day.

Just one of his countless contributions.

His bibliography is a must read.

Re: Happy 4th of July!!

slepowron, thanks for your reply and reference material, thank you, I don't want to sound anti American or get into a slinging match with you, by way of a preface, may I just say that most Americans are good, law abiding citizens and mean to do well, America is a beautiful country and it is little wonder that once a pole experiences the positive side of America he never wants to return back home.

slepowron you may go around all day holding your hand on heart whistling Dixie, but what you are saying doesn't cut and you would have to be very wet between the ears to believe that spin.(you didn't mention the recent released CIA documents which admitted dirty tricks, assassinations,etc.
The war in Iraq (as with Vietnam) was illegal and all part of a lie, The present Pope along with JP2 both condemned the US war with Iraq and pleaded for a peaceful solution (this fell on death ears)
At the end of the day every American can hold his head in shame when they hear another death in Iraq, whether it was a US marine or civilian in that country.
The current president is very presumptuous when he says may God continue to bless American (another blasphemy) He should go on his knees and ask his God for forgiveness.
With regard to LIBBY, don't delude yourself, he may have got caught up in the system, what he did was a payback and deliberate, perhaps the more guilty party in this matter was the Vice President.

I don't get the point about Polish/American, normally as the case in Australia people, Poles who settle here are identified proudly as Australians (no reference to Polish/Australians, they share there background and culture to make Australia a better country.

America is a capitalistic country,which has little to do with freedom and democracy.

Re: Happy 4th of July!!

“slepowron you may go around all day holding your hand on heart whistling Dixie”

I may; but I don’t. I do spend my time working locally to change things in the face of indifference and complacence. I am considered on both local and regional levels to be either an obstructionist idealist or an agent of populist defense of neighborhoods and minority concerns. I suppose it depends on were one stands.

I assure you that when my name appears in the news it is not in the context of establishment defending the status quo. When I do whistle in a distracted manner it is Grieg's “In the Hall of the Mountain King” and little children run away.

“believe that spin”

I’ve heard U.N. resolutions called a lot of things, I’ll add spin to the list.

“you didn't mention the recent released CIA documents”
I accepted that that is what you were referring to; rather nasty stuff isn’t it; so much better to oppose the KGB, Stasi and Securitate with harshly worded letters to the Times.

“The war in Iraq (as with Vietnam) was illegal”
That pesky U.N. really should stop passing illegal resolutions.

“With regard to LIBBY, don't delude yourself”
I don’t; Libby is a weasel, wait ‘til the information of how he brokered an exchange of money from a gun-runner for a pardon from the President gets out. Oh, sorry; it is out, it was President Clinton that pardoned Mark Rich.

“I don't get the point about Polish/American”
Yes, apparently you don’t.

“America is a capitalistic country,which has little to do with freedom and democracy.”
Damn Capitalists! Owning property, employing people, assuming multi-year risk for the development of pharmaceuticals, funding alternate energy research and development, creating opportunity and ensuring broad based participation in governance and policy. BASTARDS!

Re: Happy 4th of July!!

I must admit that I understand Americans a bit better after having emigrated to Poland, but I do find them on the whole so very different from myself in a way that Europeans aren't.
I don't know how to define what makes them different and perhaps I haven't met enough of them - it's just a feeling I always get upon meeting Americans.

Re: Happy 4th of July!!

“America is a capitalistic country,which has little to do with freedom and democracy.”
Damn Capitalists! Owning property, employing people, assuming multi-year risk for the development of pharmaceuticals, funding alternate energy research and development, creating opportunity and ensuring broad based participation in governance and policy. BASTARDS!

They are your words, you may want to explain the American dream where millions of Americans are in Jail, millions suffer from drug and alcohol addiction, obesity,depression etc, hugh increase in violent crime, suicides. A society which is living for today where money has become a God! Is this the American dream? I take your point BASTARDS.

Re: Happy 4th of July!!

" ... you may want to explain the American dream where millions of Americans are in Jail, millions suffer from drug and alcohol addiction, obesity,depression etc, hugh increase in violent crime, suicides. A society which is living for today where money has become a God!"


Not wishing to defend America, but, these are the problems of the developed world, not just America.

Re: Happy 4th of July!!

Not wishing to defend America, but, these are the problems of the developed world, not just America.

Hans, a lot of the bad stuff are exports of the USA, LSD was given to US servicemen in Vietnam, the use of LSD then spread in the USA and then to countries such as Australia. A lot of the new drugs have there birth in the USA. Poland was a peaceful country till Hollywood appeared in peoples lounge room the rest is now history.
No need to defend America Hans, there are many Americans who would jump at the opportunity.

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WOW...offbeat, excuse my language everyone, but you are one crazy motherfucker

Re: Happy 4th of July!!

Mike C instead of name calling, what about commenting about the allegations, your silence is deafening!

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Read the other thread you crazy bastard

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One measure of strangeness is indeed the US film and TV industry, which seems to denigrate anything of worth.
One snapshot is the film shown on TVP1 on Sunday - Moonlight and Valentino.
OK, so it's just a film and shouldn't be taken too seriously but ...
It was an East Coast WASPish film about widowhood and bereavement, but the film-makers had to through in Whoopi Goldberg making wisecracks throughout and the merry widow, who loved her husband dearly, embarking on an affair and voyage of amusing self-discovery in the week that followed the funeral.
European film-makers are renowned for making hard-to-understand (and sometimes appalling) films, but this film was weird in a way peculiar only to America.

Re: Happy 4th of July!!

>>WOW...offbeat, excuse my language everyone, but you are one crazy motherfucker

Offbeat, you do sound a little like Rydzyk when you go on about Polish culture becoming polluted.

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I'd have to agree about US culture being very seductive but a naff influence on the world with its concentration on the material and superficial.

However the US has also exported some really good stuff, particularly in the fields of medical research and new technology. Plus some of the bubblegum elements are fun. After all, where would little girls be without Barbie? Would be nice if they could also export some more peaceful and tolerant attitudes.

Re: Happy 4th of July!!

"
WOW...offbeat, excuse my language everyone, but you are one crazy motherfucker"

Amen to that!
There are a lot of places in the world where such views would land somebody in jail, including Poland during most of the 20th C. The freedom that we have in English-speaking cultures, specifically the US, was long fought for and hard won.

Re: Happy 4th of July!!

"The freedom that we have in English-speaking cultures, specifically the US, was long fought for and hard won. "

Let me rephrase that for you :

"The freedom that we think we have in English-speaking cultures, specifically the US, was long fought for and hard won."

Re: Happy 4th of July!!

>>"Hans, a lot of the bad stuff are exports of the USA, LSD was given to US servicemen in Vietnam, the use of LSD then spread in the USA and then to countries such as Australia. A lot of the new drugs have there birth in the USA. Poland was a peaceful country till Hollywood appeared in peoples lounge room the rest is now history.
No need to defend America Hans, there are many Americans who would jump at the opportunity."

Jon, please explain how saying that would have landed you in Jail in Poland during Communism?

Re: Happy 4th of July!!

Well, you learn something new every day, today I learned that Timothy Leary and the Beatles were U.S. agents conspiring to spread the use of LSD.

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Not just during communism - before, too, both in the second republic & in Tsarist times, there are countless incidents of people being locked up, exiled, even killed for criticising the state. For examples, I would refer you to the history books - Norman Davies is reliable on this issue.

As Churchill said to (I think) Kruschev about Britain (and true about US/Anzac also), "When somebody knocks on the door at 5am, you know it's the milkman".

Re: Happy 4th of July!!

To all Americans on the forum and freedom lovers everywhere…

“In Congress, July 4, 1776

Its interesting Mike C and all the other true blue believers of US freedom of speech, isn't it funny when you exercise your rights but speak against the USA you cop a bucked load of abuse, strange if a country doesn't conform with the ideals of America they get invaded.. Democracy at its best hey

Re: Happy 4th of July!!

The US is a strange creature.

The fight against Communism was right but it went spectacularly wrong in Vietnam, where the Americans supported fascism. However, the Arms Race was a spectacular success.

It was often wrong in South America,where the Americans supported fascism and American commercial interests.

The "War on Terror" is right, but the US invaded Iraq for as yet unclear reasons - but probably for the banal, human reason that George W. was tired of Saddam's irrtating presence.

The cost of US strangeness has been millions of lives. The policy disasters in Vietnam (where George W. had an exit policy) and Iraq were caused by extreme amateurism allied to complete self-belief.

They believed the Vietnamese would never choose Ho Chi Minh and Communism, whereas the truth of the matter was that when push came to shove insufficient Vietnamese were prepared to fight and die in favour of continued foreign domination.

Iraq, George W. believed, was the same as Germany in 1945. All you needed was de-Nazification, reconstruction efforts and a move to democratic rule and everything would be OK. Unfortunately, Iraq does not have the sense of unity or advanced social or political development that Germany had 60 years ago. Iraq needed its version of the Waffen SS left intact to keep order. Total self-belief led to intelligent people like Colin Powell being forced out of office and replaced by unscrupulous self-advancers like Condoleeza Rice, who is unable to have a single clever thought or a single personal relationship with anybody.

This is lack of thought writ large and repeated. Throughout its history the US has on several occasions breathtakingly turned its back on the most basic human and political rights.

Genocide of native Americans, the delayed abolition of slavery (you should judge people by the standards of their time), MaCarthur's disastrous meglomania in Korea, the slide into Vietnam (the US, rightly, originally preferred Ho), the invasion of Iraq.

Every country has its faults - the bigger the country, the bigger the potential for disaster. However, the industrialised slaughter by the US in Vietnam and the foreseeable policy debacle in Iraq, not to mention their dirty dealings in South America, leaves the American nation not looking as squeeky clean as they like to think themselves.

Freedom lovers? Hmmm.

Re: Happy 4th of July!!

... though a Washington did fight at Waterloo ... in Bavarian uniform!

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and later became General von Washington - he's buried in Notzing, near to Munich. A good aristo, through and through

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"Its interesting Mike C and all the other true blue believers of US freedom of speech, isn't it funny when you exercise your rights but speak against the USA you cop a bucked load of abuse"

The only one spewing hatred here is you comrade. My previous response to you:

"You are entitled to your own opinion "

God Bless

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Ah1 The sweet smell of racism

So to summerise

Germans are bad, because of WWII

Americans are bad because of everything

England is bad because we don't have Polish bread and have too many non whites

Poland is bad because it has two idiot brothers and a mad preist messing the place up.

Where should be live?

What has this got to do with the 4th of July?

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Errrm ...

Re: Happy 4th of July!!

Check this out. Straight from Texas. Priceless.

New favorite country song:


http://www.dburdett.net/ftp/videos/rodney-showem.wmv