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Poland and Polish Discussion Group and Forum
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Polish Property

A one-off message sent in by Philip.

"dear all
as a small developer in london, with a personal interest in poland, i have followed the polish market for a while - but never invested in it.
the polish residential market is being driven by easy credit by the banks, usually in swiss franc, the banks usually have an interest in the construction companies, the banks also have customers all of which are looking for an easy way to make money- anyone see a pattern ?
the fundamentals in poland are not there, it does not have a strong economy, poverty is rife, wages are still low, the current property boom is a bubble- this bubble will burst,
investors- beware! do your research,
philip"

Re: Polish Property

A good warning indeed, you assume all Poles are poor, many Poles buy houses cash.
Taking credit in Swiss francs is indeed worrying as the currency does tend to fluctuate all the time.
The message is clear. Poles and anyone apert the the writer, don't buy property in Poland, prices will drop, just like in the Uk over the past 20 years.

(The fundamentals in poland are not there, it does not have a strong economy, poverty is rife, wages are still low, the current property boom is a bubble- this bubble will burst)

What fundamentals?

I will sell my property in Poland fast and pop my money in the bank. Thanks

Re: Polish Property

A good time to sell, a bad time to buy. there are still some good bargains to be had, but (speaking as somebody who is thinking of buying a home) to see poxy bits of land double in value overnight.

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I'd agree that most property is artificially overpriced. I am astonished at the prices I have seen. This is down to people being greedy and foreign investors willing to pay over the odds because they still see it as cheap compared to similar properties in their own country. However the price fixing is so widespread that the entire market has been taken over with it. They are now apparently selling the old block apartments which remain government property for notional amounts, which is making people who purchased theirs in the 80s and 90s rather irate. However there should soon be opportunities to buy in a block very cheaply (unless of course people try to sell and make a packet).

Basically once they know you are from a foreign country you are a target for a hiked up price.

I am waiting until things get more sensible before I invest in anything. Or I might buy land and build instead. It's not really a priority at the moment.

Re: Polish Property

Real prices not bumped up, just go to Allegro.

Re: Polish Property

Prices are also pretty high on allegro! 150,000 for the smallest flat in a block ...

You can buy these flats for 5 zloties if you live in them or have a relative who does.

Re: Polish Property

they are inflated in the area I want to buy near krakow.

Re: Polish Property

what is allegro?

Re: Polish Property

Prices are also pretty high on allegro! 150,000 for the smallest flat in a block ...

You can buy these flats for 5 zloties if you live in them or have a relative who does.

5 zlotes, when?

Why do all Poles want to live in a block?


Allegro is a polish auction site:

Allegro.pl

Try this to go straight to property:-

http://allegro.pl/20783_sprzedaz.html

'Kup teraz' is the buy now price

Re: Polish Property

"5 zlotes, when?"

this is a very recent policy, my mum mentioned it the other day.

"Why do all Poles want to live in a block?"

they don't but it's very expensive to buy a house these days. Also the blocks may be ugly but were quite well built with a fairly good design for the era. Structurally sound, they have pretty good insulation in the winter and balconys for the summer. (at least that's the case for the ones I've been in). Many of the apartments are quite luxurious inside. It's the communal areas that let them down.

Re: Polish Property

Virtually all apartments in Poland were state-owned. Since the 1990s people have been able to buy them, in a similar way to council housing in the UK. Prices were very cheap - 1000 to 5000 złoties per apartment on average. Lots and lots of people bought them.

Now the remaining flats, still rented by the tenants, are up for sale. Tenants or their relatives can now buy them for as little as 5 złoties each.

Some of the people who paid a 1000 or so, for their apartment, apparently aren't very happy.

A friend just arranged to give her aged grandmother the necessary 5 złoties for her apartment and the place will be hers when she dies. What a bargain!

Re: Polish Property

"A friend just arranged to give her aged grandmother the necessary 5 złoties for her apartment and the place will be hers when she dies. What a bargain! "

I bet the extended family will contest this and will want their 1/25th based on the market value or whatever.

Re: Polish Property

You can buy these flats for 5 zloties if you live in them or have a relative who does.

I'm not sure if 5 zl is the going rate, but one of my friends has asked me to give her 10,000zl and her unit will be mine when she passes away, if you believe everything you read on Polish Real Estate this property is worth about 250,000 zl. (you have to find a buyer first)

I agree that a lot of people will get there fingers burnt when the Property market crashes, it is currently bumped up by a lot of overseas money and misinformation by greedy speculators who will flee polish real estate once that have cashed up, leaving the unsuspecting buyer carrying the baby.

The main reason why property cannot be that of the UK/US is that current income by the vast majority of Poles is by far to low, and it doubtful if this will ever change.
From my experience everywhere you go to enquire about a house or vacant land it has doubled overnight, well hello can anybody tell me why? or has gold just been discovered in Poland!

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Are we taking about zloty per metre?

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For the whole property, I don't understand why the government is doing this? I suppose they do not need to spend any money for renovations etc, the rent people pay is peanuts.

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Just a hunch but I think they envisage the properties falling apart in the next 20-30 years and to have to spend progressively more to maintain them and maybe to rehouse the people in suitable accommodation.

This happened in the UK with a lot of prefab housing that became uninhabitable. For example in birmingham they replaced all the old prefabs with new builds which must have cost a fortune. I reckon they want these old places off their hands. But as someone already said, a lot of people are really annoyed because they paid a lot of money years ago to buy. Those who stayed put without buying are now going to get them for nothing.

Re: Polish Property

Those who stayed put without buying are now going to get them for nothing.

Who knows the ones who have already purchased may suffer huge costs in the future, when you think about it, a 2 room flat in a big housing block is probably worth peanuts anyway.

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I read the rented flat giveaway story in a printed newspaper a while back, but, this website also has the story:

Polish apartment giveaway
(it's in Polish). The price quoted is between 5 and 50 to 90 zł (ish). Anyway, virtually nothing.

Re: Polish Property

thanks for the reference, ta

Re: Polish Property

For the whole property, I don't understand why the government is doing this? I suppose they do not need to spend any money for renovations etc, the rent people pay is peanuts.

Owners of apartments still have to pay something each month to these wspólnota (the organisation, which owns the actual building). Sometimes this service charge is very high.

Why is the government doing this? The election! It's the uneducated and aged who vote PiS and a lot of them haven't had the money to buy their apartment until now.

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Yes the election determines the timing of this but they must have been planning how to get rid of these blocks and their associated maintenance for years now. What will happen is that the people who buy them for nothing will suddenly be hit by the real costs of living there. I reckon this is going to lead to more dilapidated buildings in town centres as the new owners struggle with costs of upkeep.

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They only buy the apartment itself. The maintenance of the building itself is covered by the service charge, which everyone who owns or rents a flat in Poland has to pay each month.

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Isn't that currently subsidised by the state seeing as they are ultimate landlords? (if it works like a leasehold in the uk).

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NO! That ended in 1990.

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Why do foreigners always think polish state pay for anything in Poland? They pay for nothing.

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So who do the tenants pay the maintenance to? I know that they pay something called "Cinsz" (I think that's the spelling) which covers stuff like maintenance and I think rent....If the rents are minimal do they pay separate maintenance charges?

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"Why do foreigners always think polish state pay for anything in Poland? They pay for nothing. "

Probably because I am always hearing of people getting months of sick pay. Isn't that paid from the Polish version of national insurance?

Re: Polish Property

Who told You rents minimal?

Re: Polish Property

For Mark :
offbeat
Aug 14th, 2007 - 8:40 AM Re: Polish Property

"For the whole property, I don't understand why the government is doing this? I suppose they do not need to spend any money for renovations etc, the rent people pay is peanuts. "

Re: Polish Property

Maybe for You. Not for Polish.

I pay more than 300 PLN in service charges a month. Plus all other bills. Apartment is Mine not rented.

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Marek I thought offbeat was in Poland. Maybe he isn't. Anyway I was going by what people have already said on this board.

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Apparently the original rent (correct term czynsz) set depended on whether it was "spoldzielnia" that owned the building (in which case a monthly type of lease payment was due) or "Komunalna" where people lived for free and which were given to those of no means and to communist officials etc.

Presumably post communism all the rentals were standardised so that the former komunalne buildings became chargeable?

Re: Polish Property

I think most Poles would be very angry to hear that the money they pay to apartment block administrators is seen as nothing. It's a lot of money by any standards paid out each and every month. Especially considering average salary levels. What's more, they pay this money, on paper, for the upkeep of communal areas and the building and nothing is ever spent on this. It all goes on paying the many leeches who want a piece of this money in the admin offices. Money down the drain.

Hans, I cannot understand the logic of some forum members, on one hand people are saying that everything is rosy in Poland and Real Estate is booming and we have people like you Hans saying the opposite.
I'm not sure of the exact cost of renting government housing, I know the average pensioner gets around 750zl a month. The average wage is just under 3000zl and people seem to have everything ie cars, best TV's, and no short supply of vodka, One thing I know that the current situation will not hold and there will be a major adjustment in the housing market, one thing for sure is the current instability in the current government won't help matters.

By the way Hans the mere fact that you are living in Poland must mean it must be good as you are a hard man to please

Re: Polish Property

Just a further point about homes/apartments in sort after areas, I understand the Jews are reclaiming a lot of lot owned by them prior to the war, one of my friends has been told that he will have to vacate his unit in four years time, it seems people will need to check before purchasing land, buildings etc, to see if there property is subject to future claims.

Re: Polish Property

"Hans, I cannot understand the logic of some forum members, on one hand people are saying that everything is rosy in Poland and Real Estate is booming and we have people like you Hans saying the opposite."

From what I have seen, some people are either doing extremely well or have nothing with a big divide between the two. You can have a really great life in Poland if you have money and people with money are going there and paying too much for properties.

Re: Polish Property

you are right Another Ania, although a lot of speculators from the UK are buying up big in Poland, (on borrowed funds of course) in anticipation, the question I always ask is that how can a person on 3000zl a month (thats the average wage- some people only earn 1500zl) be able to afford to buy a house, unless he intends living for 200yrs.
The price of most goods are cheaper in Poland than the UK but still expensive for Poles.

Re: Polish Property

I think offbeat must have mean 300zl. I think average for a large chunk of the population is about 500-600zl now isn't it?

Re: Polish Property

No I am thinking in pounds. The average is about £250-500 a month (£500 being a good wage), so that would be approx PLN1500 to 3000. However, some factory workers earn about £100 a month or less even.

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That's based on last year or a couple of years back, but I'd imagine it has gone up rather than down.

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As said before many,many poles have more than one income, many have income from property owned.

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The national minimum salary went up to about PLN 1250. Average salaries are in the upper 2000s.

Good money if you have a dual-income family and live in a house with no mortgage. Grandma is typically on hand to help with childcare and there is no school run as the kids walk or take the bus.

Re: Polish Property

""Average salaries are in the upper 2000s.""

Perhaps in Warsaw. But when a qualified teacher or doctor in Poland earn only 1500 zloties this is obviously inaccurate.

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Most teachers and doctors have to do extra work, to make a living wage. Surprisingly few can get by on just one source of income.

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Teachers do not earn 1500, as said, they get extras and lots of them as do teachers.

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Full-time rates of pay (before deductions) for teachers working in state schools in Poland:

1218 zł dla nauczyciela stażysty (wzrost w stosunku do roku 2006 - o 58 zł);
1444 zł dla nauczyciela kontraktowego (wzrost o 69 zł).
1829 zł dla nauczyciela mianowanego (wzrost o 87 zł).
2195 zł dla nauczyciela dyplomowanego (wzrost - o 105 zł).

Tax and ZUS deductions reduce these payments considerably.

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Perhaps a Polish School teacher would care to comment on what she earns and how she makes ends meet!

Re: Polish Property

If you work as a teacher in a core subject, say maths or Polish, then you give 45 minute private lessons at 40 zlots an hour.

Also, don't forget that teachers in Poland work an 18 hour week - the typical UK part-time teacher's hours. Add to that the fact that many Polish teachers have a poor standard of education. Pay peanuts, get monkeys.

Teachers of English cannot be retained, regardless of how poor they are. If only they knew that the place I work will pay substantially higher salaries to secretaries who can type well and speak passable English. We have major problems recruiting professional English-speaking secretaries.

Re: Polish Property

"Add to that the fact that many Polish teachers have a poor standard of education. Pay peanuts, get monkeys."

This is the same throughout all sections of Polish societ and employment. Polish teachers are no less educated than anyone else in Poland who has a degree! The problem is one of Polish education standards, in general.

As for only doing 18 hours, well, that I won't even respond to ...

Re: Polish Property

I will then - the 18 hours are lesson time only. Add to this the hours spent on preparation, supervision, parents' evenings, teachers' meetings, etc.

Re: Polish Property

18 hours (in theory) lesson time in the main job. Not to mention the other jobs on the side, extra lessons, etc. that teachers here have to do to make a living.