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Polish woman shot dead in London

http://www.thesun.co.uk/article/0,,2-2007460021,00.html

Just caught in the crossfire between two hoods - wrong place, wrong time. Poor woman.

Re: Polish woman shot dead in London

I just saw the same story on yahoo.

A 26-year-old Polish woman has died after being caught in the cross-fire between two gunmen in a residential street in London, police said Wednesday.

The woman, who lived with her Polish boyfriend and worked at a nursing home but has not yet been identified, was hit in the head by a stray bullet and found bleeding in a stairwell in New Cross, southeast London, on Tuesday night.

London's Evening Standard newspaper reported that she was hit after two drug dealers met to discuss an unpaid debt before pulling guns on each other and exchanging shots, missing each other but hitting her.

At least one of the gunmen was linked to a local gang, it added.

"At this early stage, we believe that the victim was caught up in the cross-fire," a spokesman for London's Metropolitan Police said.

A police spokewoman at the scene added that the victim had lived in Britain for three years and had been walking home from work when she was hit. Her next of kin have not yet been traced.

Politicians have voiced increasing concern about gun and gang culture among some young people in deprived inner city areas in recent months following a string of high profile deaths


My girlfriend also mentioned something about a 14 year old Pole being killed in Leeds. Can't find any info though.

Re: Polish woman shot dead in London

Found it.

Man held after Polish girl, 14, found stabbed to death

DETECTIVES were investigating the stabbing to death of a Polish girl last night, after a body was found at a house in Leeds.
The girl, who police named as as Zuzanna Zommer, was 14 and lived at the house with her parents and her nine-year-old brother.

Officers from West Yorkshire Police's Homicide and Major Enquiry Team were called to the house in Compton Row, Harehills, at around 3.45pm, after neighbours heard screaming in the street.

People living nearby said a Polish family who spoke very little English had moved into the house about three months ago.

A post mortem is due to take place later today and detailed scientific examinations of the house are ongoing.

The two people arrested yesterday, a 38 year old man and a 37 year old woman, have been released without charge.

A 39 year old man was arrested late last night and is being held at a Police Station in Leeds. He will continue to be questioned for most of the day.

Detective Superintendent Bill Shackleton from the Homicide and Major Enquiry Team said: "From enquiries so far it appears Zuzanna was alone at home for much of the day and lost her life following a brutal attack.

"We are still piecing together what happened in Compton Row yesterday and would ask that anyone who may have seen someone going to or coming out of Zuzanna's home prior to the arrival of the ambulance and police to contact Police on 0113 2413659."

Re: Polish woman shot dead in London

New Cross is not far from where I come from. Not a nice place.

Re: Polish woman shot dead in London

New Cross - I rejected the teacher training college there after they told me at interview that they viewed "community languages" as more important than French (or german etc).
I walked out after telling them they were mad, and that it wasn't really worth my while trying to learn under narrow-minded extremists like them.

Re: Polish woman shot dead in London

I was looking on 'Onet.pl' a Polish news website about this story and the Leeds killing. The comments from readers (the raison d'etre of Onet's news really) were quite illuminating. Onet publishes stories about bad things that happen to Poles in the UK, negative things said about Poland etc in order to provoke comments. There are adverts on the comments page.

Usually the comments about Poles coming a cropper in the UK fit one of several patterns:
a)"Look! See how nobody likes us"
b)"Pierdolone Angole, killing Poles, putting milk in tea and driving on the wrong side"
c)"Uncultured nationality, destroying Kraków, murdering Sikorski and forcing Poles to work for minimum wage"
d)"I worked there for 3 months and know for a FACT that..."
e)"These people should never leave the fatherland" f)"they should send all the Pakistanis straight back home and Poles wouldn't be murdered there".

The key thing here is that if a Pole is killed, attacked, robbed etc. in the UK it gets picked up by the Polish press and a general sense of outrage ensues. If it is a Pole committing the crime, it is completely ignored - as if it never happened.

By the way, I lived for several years just a few streets away from where poor Zuzanna Zommer was killed and the area really isn't such a bad one. There must be more to it than has been reported so far.

And similar comments

Re: Polish woman shot dead in London

I reckon a lot of violent crime gets unreported in the papers, but for some reason crimes against or committed by Poles get a lot of press at the moment.

Re: Polish woman shot dead in London

Poland, France, England and Wales have statistically identical homicide rates. So if one desired to be murdered then just stay at home.

You improve your chances of being murdered 50% by moving to Scotland.

Re: Polish woman shot dead in London

Tha latest report from the Guardian.

Family tributes to Polish care worker gunned down in London

The family of a young care worker who was killed after being caught in crossfire between two gunmen paid tribute to their daughter last night, describing her as the "flower of a rose and a ray of sun".
Magda Pniewska, 26, a Polish national who had lived in Britain for four years, died after being hit in the head by a stray bullet. She had just finished a shift at a nursing home in south London.

Yesterday her family, speaking from their home in Poland, said: "Our darling daughter, the flower of a rose and a ray of sun, has been taken away from us. My darling sister whose joy and wisdom has been taken away from me ... She was like a wind full of life. Today she is not among us any more, but her spirit still lives among us and our memories of her will never die."
Police found Ms Pniewska lying at the bottom of steps suffering from a serious head injury. She was taken to King's College hospital but died just over an hour later. Last night, flowers marked the spot where she died.

Ginette Coleman, a friend of one of Ms Pniewska's elderly patients, said the young care worker had made a huge impression on patients and staff. "I was just absolutely sick when I heard the news," she said. "I had only seen her a few days ago - she was laughing."

Colleagues of Ms Pniewska from the Manley Court Nursing Centre in New Cross, south-east London described her as "truly lovely".

Father John Francis, curate at All Saints' church in New Cross Gate, which Ms Pniewska attended, said: "We are very shocked. She was known by a number of people in our congregation."

Witnesses said the care worker was shot as she walked across the nursing centre car park. They reported seeing two men fire bullets at each other.

Officers from Trident, the Metropolitan police unit investigating gun crime in the black community, are looking at whether the shootout was linked to drug dealing. Two men and a woman arrested in connection with the shooting were released from custody yesterday. They face no further action. A third man has been released from custody on bail.

Re: Polish woman shot dead in London

She did look like a lovely girl in the photo they had in the paper yesterday. Very pretty and full of life.

Re: Polish woman shot dead in London

Today's 'Super Expres' had a photo and she did indeed look very nice. It also showed her grieving mother. A real tragedy. Where on earth do these people get the guns from, considering that they're so hard to import?

Re: Polish woman shot dead in London

When guns are outlawed only outlaws have guns.

Re: Polish woman shot dead in London

“Where on earth do these people get the guns from, considering that they're so hard to import?”

Where on earth do these people get the heroin from, considering that it’s so hard to import?
Where on earth do these people get the slave labor from, considering that they're so hard to import?
Where on earth do these people get the non-taxed cigarettes from, considering that they're so hard to import?
Where on earth do these people get the child pornography from, considering that it’s so hard to import?

I see nothing inherently wrong with law-abiding individuals owning firearms. Ironically the current system in Britain, in practice, establishes that only the non-law-abiding possess firearms.

Re: Polish woman shot dead in London

Guns (and the rest) are probably easy to import given that (from what I have seen) there are no proper checks on people coming into the UK via the Eurotunnel or on Eurostar.

I don't agree with ordinary people owning guns. I'm sure there are far more gun related murders in countries where this is the case. You will end up with situations where an argument with a neighbour turns into a shootout. Or someone gets angry on the tube and shoots all the other passengers.

Re: Polish woman shot dead in London

Mind you sometimes these days I think people in the UK are losing it a bit. Every day there is some new violent death in the paper. No it's not in Iraq but on the streets, in schools, or at work. From some crazy guy sending letterbombs to Rhys Jones, to that teenager who stabbed her sister with a kitchen knife for eating her slice of pizza to this Polish girl getting caught in gang related spats. People are very confused about life these days.

Re: Polish woman shot dead in London

When I moved back to the UK Idrove my camper van back from Poland it was loaded to the roof, packed solid, roof box, roofrack full and 4 bikes tied on the back, I wasn't checked at all, I came over on the ferry from Holland.
I was amazed, as you say security is really a joke. Where do the guns come from? If it so easy to buy in Eastern Europe and drive over .........

I was offered guns in the Warsaw market a couple of times.

Re: Polish woman shot dead in London

There must also be companies that manufacture guns in the UK for use by the army etc. I remember there being one such weapon manufacturer in Birmingham. Apparently they had government contracts etc. There are also plenty of gun clubs where you get to use the real thing in a controlled environment. So there is a chance that some of this stuff finds its way to the backstreet market in the UK.

Re: Polish woman shot dead in London

Most guns in the hands of these black and pakistani gangs are smuggled in from eastern Europe. From the BBC.


"Smuggling

The campaign's director, David Bredin, said: "It is crystal clear from the research that the existing gun laws do not lead to crime reduction and a safer place.

"Policy makers have targeted the legitimate sporting and farming communities with ever-tighter laws but the research clearly demonstrates that it is illegal guns which are the real threat to public safety."

He said the rise was largely down to successful smuggling of illegal guns into the country.

Weapons have even been disguised as key rings no larger than a matchbox to get them in, he said.

Other sources of guns include battlefield trophies brought back by soldiers, the illegal conversion of replica firearms including blank firing pistols and the reactivation of weapons which had been deactivated. "

Re: Polish woman shot dead in London

Pakkistanis bring in the heroin.
Poles bring in a lot of cocaine and amphetamines.

Re: Polish woman shot dead in London

So who used to bring in all the coke and amphetamines in the 70s and 80s?

Re: Polish woman shot dead in London

Amphetamine was very often made locally and anything else was brought in by sailors from any one of a number of countries with the USSR, USA & The Netherlands all high on the list.

Re: Polish woman shot dead in London

drugs flow into UK

The above link confirms Poland is a major source of Amphetamine inflow into the UK, but Poland is not linked to cocaine inflow. Whether Poles are involved is another thing, but cocaine comes from south america so Poland being en route seems illogical.

Re: Polish woman shot dead in London

by the way amphetamines also come into the UK from the netherlands, Belgium and the czech republic. Most cocaine also comes into Europe via spain or the netherlands. A surprising fact according to this site, is that 50% of UK cannabis is domestically produced.

Re: Polish woman shot dead in London

Poland has been the Amphetamine capital for a good few years.

Re: Polish woman shot dead in London

"I don't agree with ordinary people owning guns. "

Those without criminal or violent history should legally be able to protect themselves from violent criminals. US laws in this case should serve as a model for the rest of the world.

As far as Eastern European arms, you can buy Bulgarian AK-47’s dirt cheap at any gun show in the US. Last I checked they went for around $400, which is less than a decent .38 handgun. In Poland you can buy one (illegally) for half the price.

Bulgaria and Czech Republic are leading East European small arm producers. In fact, the Czechs are a Wal Mart of cheap rifles and handguns. All crap.

Of course, a Glock is still a marvel of German/Austrian engineering

Re: Polish woman shot dead in London

Mike-

Don’t forget the best all around personal sidearm of the last 100 years.

http://www.fabrykabroni.pl/index1.htm
PISTOLET VIS wz.35
I was very disappointed that they’ve only done limited edition collector’s production in recent years. I had hoped that they would have gone into full production to satisfy standard retail demand.

Re: Polish woman shot dead in London

Collector's piece. Very Nice. Been around long time.

I like SW 686 for personal protection.

Re: Polish woman shot dead in London

Have you seen the new Benelli?

http://www.benelliusa.com/firearms/r1rifle.tpl

Shot elk last week.

One of Italy's greatest contributions.


Check this site out when you get a chance

http://www.bumar.com/eng/index.php

Re: Polish woman shot dead in London

"Those without criminal or violent history should legally be able to protect themselves from violent criminals. US laws in this case should serve as a model for the rest of the world. "

I think the fact that people having guns has not stopped violent gun crime in the US is a good reason to say that ordinary people owning guns does not help a jot. In the same way capital punishment in the US does not seem to make the murder rates go down there. All that happens is that you have more potentially crazy individuals having access to lethal weapons that they might decide to use when drunk or on drugs.

Re: Polish woman shot dead in London

Exactly. And criminals can get guns even in countries with strict gun control, but in places such as the US where firearms are easy to get hold of, even middle class kids can get one and shoot their fellow schoolmates. Vide Columbine and Virginia Tech.

Re: Polish woman shot dead in London

How many of these awful incidents must there be before something is done to stop them. Terrible as Dunblane was, at least it led to a ban on handguns. But Britain is one and a bit islands and there weren't that many guns to begin with. In the US there is a porous border with a third world country and hundreds of thousands of guns already in people's homes many unregistered.

But what can we actually do to prevent more shootings of people like Magda Pniewska or that young American tourist who was shot by gangsters in Piaseczno this year?

Re: Polish woman shot dead in London

Cocaine.
S.America - W.Africa - Poland - overland to the UK.
Logical.

Re: Polish woman shot dead in London

according to the research it's not happening on a large scale varsovian

Re: Polish woman shot dead in London

Of course, only those drug smugglers actually caught make it into the official figures ...

Re: Polish woman shot dead in London

It's the overland routes that are most vulnerable & the sea routes that are most successful according to Howard Marks' autobiography. A sailor of my (slight) acquaintance (Polish) has been at it for years.

Of course not all that is seized (in Poland at any rate) is disposed of.

Re: Polish woman shot dead in London

Jon

You cannot seriously blame handguns for psychopaths killing. That logic doesnt work.

One can very well argue that if any of the victims had a gun he could have killed that lunatic before he hurt anyone.

European attitudes on this subject are bizarre.

BTW, in hunting is very popular in Poland and you never hear of any incidents involving rifles or shotguns. They are fairly easy to get in Poland, less all the paperwork.

Re: Polish woman shot dead in London

"In the same way capital punishment in the US does not seem to make the murder rates go down there. "

Ania, so you dont think that whoever is responsible for killing that young Polish girl should be put to death?

What's the proper punishment for taking an innocent life in your opinion?

Re: Polish woman shot dead in London

"Ania, so you dont think that whoever is responsible for killing that young Polish girl should be put to death?

What's the proper punishment for taking an innocent life in your opinion? "

No I don't believe in the death penalty because that makes us just as bad as murderers in my eyes. The killer should be made to see the error of their ways by living with what they have done. They should make people like this give back to the community a thousandfold so that they learn a lesson and benefit society, rather than spend money killing them.

Re: Polish woman shot dead in London

"One can very well argue that if any of the victims had a gun he could have killed that lunatic before he hurt anyone. "

They all had guns, that's the problem. She didn't have a gun but then she didn't even know what was happening until it was too late. Even if she'd had a gun there would have been no use for it. Even if she had killed the assailant she would then have to prove in court that it had been justifiable self defence. She would have probably ended up with a life sentence for manslaughter or something knowing our wonderful justice system in the UK.

Re: Polish woman shot dead in London

An update on the Leeds story.

Neighbour charged with murder and rape of Polish girl

A NEIGHBOUR was due in court today - Friday - charged with raping and murdering a 14-year-old girl Polish girl at her Leeds home on Monday.
Michael Jeffrey Clark, 39, who was arrested late on Monday night had spent almost three days being questioned by detectives before being charged late last night.
He was arrested about eight hours after the parents of Zuzanna Zommer had returned to their home in Compton Row, Harehills, and found the body of their daughter in an upstairs bedroom.
The family had moved to England from Poland just three months ago, hoping to start a new life in Britain.
The couple also have a nine-year-old son who was reportedly at school at the time his sister's body was found.
On Wednesday, police went to the city's magistrates court and were granted a warrant of further detention to continue questioning Clark.
Last night they charged him with rape and murder.
Stabbed
Yesterday police revealed that a post mortem examination carried out on the teenager revealed the cause of death as multiple injuries, including stab wounds.
Zuzanna, her brother and parents, aged 38 and 37, moved to Leeds from Gorzow Wielkopolski, a city in western Poland.
Zuzanna had been waiting for a placement at a high school in the city.
The family is being supported by specially trained officers plus staff from social services, West Yorkshire Police said last night.

Re: Polish woman shot dead in London

Mike-

I had a scheduling conflict so I was unable to attend DSEi this year. Perhaps next year, I’ll make a point to check out Bumar.

The Benelli does look nice, did you use the 30-06 configuration? Mind you it’s been a long time since I’ve even been to a range. But I am old school so my preference for the 30-06 comes from my M1 Garand.

I used to live not ten miles from S&W so I’ve seen and admired most of their offerings (except the early stainless stuff). I have to admit a weakness for the old K-frame line.

Re: Polish woman shot dead in London

I feel sick when I see stories like that. How can people be so cruel?

Re: Polish woman shot dead in London

"Jon
You cannot seriously blame handguns for psychopaths killing. That logic doesnt work.
One can very well argue that if any of the victims had a gun he could have killed that lunatic before he hurt anyone.
European attitudes on this subject are bizarre.
BTW, in hunting is very popular in Poland and you never hear of any incidents involving rifles or shotguns. They are fairly easy to get in Poland, less all the paperwork. "

I don't blame the guns in themself. I just know that a few times in my life, if I'd had a loaded gun in my home I'd have pointed it at somebody and on at least one occasion I'd have shot somebody dead. I'd rather see as few guns as possible. I understand why the Americans cherish their right to bear arms but would like to seee very strict controls on ownership. I don't consider them beautiful things.

In Poland, I heard they've made it a bit harder to get guns, especially for foreigners who aren't part of a hunting club. Nevertheless there seems to be very little gun crime here.

Re: Polish woman shot dead in London

slepowron -

.338 mag. He took a few steps and dropped like a rock. Fantastic meat.

I havent used the new Benelli yet. Elk hunting is rough on equipment.

I've gone bird hunting in PL before with some classic dubeltowkas. Foreigners have to go with guides from the local kolo and use their equipment.

I was told that locals (this was on the east side by the ukrainian border) hunt quale by soaking grain in alchohol and then they just hand pick intoxicated birds. Who would have thought. Polak potrafi

If you go to DSEi in London check out Belchatow stand. It amazes me how competitive PL has become in that field in terms of tech and quality.

Re: Polish woman shot dead in London

"I was told that locals (this was on the east side by the ukrainian border) hunt quale by soaking grain in alchohol and then they just hand pick intoxicated birds. Who would have thought. Polak potrafi "

A nie tylko Polak potrafi! Hunters (especially poachers) have been doing that for years in Britain, except they use currants soaked in brandy. Some consider it a little unsporting, but I suppose it's a more efficient way of catching dinner!