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Poles (and British too) are saying all sorts of horrible things. But it's worth remembering the example of John Paul II. He talked a lot about miłosierdie, mercy.
Perhaps it's time to follow his example a bit.
By the way, Oxford isn't generally considered a leftist university. Especially this week.
And I still think we should reflect on what JPII would have done with her.
JPII spoke of the reciprocal exchange of grace, and certainly espoused the virtue of forgiveness. This is not to say that he or Christian teaching inherently speak of capital punishment never being suitable. On the contrary, Judeo-Christian dogma is clear:
Genesis 9:6: "Whoso sheddeth man's blood, by man shall his blood be shed: for in the image of God made he man."
Exodus 21:1: "He that smiteth a man, so that he die, shall be surely put to death."
Verses 33-34 "So ye shall not pollute the land wherein ye are: for blood it defileth the land: and the land cannot be cleansed of the blood that is shed therein, but by the blood of him that shed it."
Deuteronomy 19:11-13: "But if any man hate his neighbour, and lie in wait for him, and rise up against him, and smite him mortally that he die, and fleeth into one of these cities: Then the elders of his city shall send and fetch him thence, and deliver him into the hand of the avenger of blood, that he may die. Thine eye shall not pity him”
As Poland does not have the death penalty this is not really relevant.
ps. using bible quotes to support arguments is not appropriate. You can find a quote in there to suit any argument.
I completely agree Ania - especially from the Old Testament. I mean come on, you can find a lot of crazy stuff in there which you would not want to apply to modern day ethics.
Yeah, let's not get biblical - I only get 'spiritual' on Friday nights!
I am not thumping a bible at anyone but pointing out that the current prevalent view that we are somehow obligated to forgive every one every thing so as to claim morality is misplaced.
The Old Testament quotes easily but there is no shortage of examples within the New Testament of muscular law enforcement (Romans); the Apostles were just much more wordy. It was the difference between old oral tradition and the epistilatory basis of the new.
As to mercy or forgiveness: you’ll have to show me where she has apologized, done penance or even simply acknowledged her actions.
Plenty of mercy and forgiveness in the New Testament too.
Mercy is for the Lord. We have laws to deliver justice
Justice means many things to many people
Honestly, the title of this should read "War Criminal faces justice at last"
Civil war raged in Poland well into the 1950’s between Russian planted communists (most of whom weren’t even Polish, this is a fact) and the remnants of Polish wartime underground. Most of the atrocities committed by Stalinist lackeys will never come to the full public view anyway…
Because of people like her someone grew up without a father, brother, mother…these people were nothing but state-sponsored terrorists and should be shot on the spot. Public execution would be most appropriate in this case.
"Justice means many things to many people"
What are you, a philosopher?
It has been well established in international law that any language pertaining to limitations does not apply to war crimes.
My friend's mum's two brothers were executed by someone like her or even maybe her. Her mother spent ten years as a political prisoner (spared from death as she was a woman).
Nothing will bring them back or give back lost years. I don't believe vengeance is the way forward in any situation. An eye for an eye is neanderthal thinking.
“An eye for an eye is neanderthal thinking.”
Right…murderers should be rehabilitated in state institutions so they can see the error of their ways…
Blah Blah Blah. Sorry Ania.
I’m surprised you feel this way about this case, given your family background.
"I’m surprised you feel this way about this case, given your family background. "
feeling differently will not help change my family history Mike. Surely you can understand that carrying hatred around inside you only hurts you. It means that the people who carried out these acts have affected the next generation. Doing the same thing to someone else means we have learned nothing.
"Right…murderers should be rehabilitated in state institutions so they can see the error of their ways…"
As I've said already, there is no death penalty in Poland so this is another debate.
Secondly this woman is 88. Is she really going to be aware of much at her age or even care what happens? I don't see the point of pursuing people who are nearly dead themselves. It just makes a joke of it all.
Sure they have affected us. That’s why we who grew up outside of Poland can understand why our parents always insisted we learn Polish, Polish history, etc. Their parents had to fight for it.
Just think how different our parents and their parents’ lives would have been if they could live in a normal, free country.
“Secondly this woman is 88. Is she really going to be aware of much at her age or even care what happens? I don't see the point of pursuing people who are nearly dead themselves. It just makes a joke of it all.”
This is a frequent excuse used by criminals to delay or escape trials altogether.
Going after her (and bringing her to justice, hopefully) sends a message.
“Secondly this woman is 88.”
Doesn’t this mean that she would spend less time incarcerated and thus pay a smaller penalty for assassinating political opponents? There you have it, your desire to reduce her sentence in deference to age is accommodated.
Population of Hell: +1
The service was to have been on Friday, 5th December. However, two days beforehand, the widow was buried in a closed ceremony.
The news didn't escape my attention.
I don't think my views are different to yours on this one.
It still rankles of course that the Guardian and fellow-traveller filth wax lyrical about human rights abuses yet find love in their hearts for Stalinists.