Poland and Polish Discussion Group and Forum

Welcome to the original English language Poland and Polish discussion group board. This message forum is a place where English-speaking Poles, foreigners (expats) living in Poland, and anyone with a genuine interest in Poland can discuss and read the views of others concerning Poland. Subjects include: Polish news and current affairs; Life in Poland; politics; genealogy research; Polish culture and history; advice and tips on visiting Poland; Polish property and investment issues. The aim of our group is to increase awareness of wonderful Poland using the English language and allow and foster the honest debate and exchange of opinions on anything vaguely related to Poland and Polish - positive, negative and/or neutral! To state the obvious: all opinions and views expressed on this site are solely those of their respective authors and are not necessarily those of anyone else! Messages consisting of ads will be deleted.

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Poland and Polish Discussion Group and Forum
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Re: Poland's former leader on trial

Yes, in absentia in 1984. The payment issue speaks to the specific nature of his actions. He always insisted that his did not spy “for” the United States but rather that his actions were for Poland.

I too am curious as to the specific nature of the sworn oath. At one point the oath was to the communist party but that may have ended in 1956. But on some level that is immaterial as there are recognized higher responsibilities than oath or service. This is illustrated by the rejection of the “Nuremburg Defense” wherein Nazi officers pleaded that they were “following orders”. The Nuremburg Tribunals established that one is not absolved from personal responsibility by reason of oath or service.

Kuklinski’s case is clear in that he came to consider that the government and actions of the PRL were not legitimate; a stance upheld in large part by the current government.

Jaruzelski’s case contradicts itself. He was both claiming to save the government of the PRL and at the same time violating its own legal structures. One cannot both assert the legitimacy of a government and assert the legitimacy of ones actions while ignoring the precepts of that government. He is either guilty of crimes against the government he claimed to serve or he was guilty of assuming power without the consent of the governed. Traditionally one can be hung for both.

The importance of Kuklinski will become more evident over time. By being tied to the implementation teams charged with assuring PRL compliance to Soviet strategy he understood that every war game scenario required that NATO respond to the Soviet SS20 nuclear missile and logistical deployment on Polish soil with nuclear strikes on Poland. The role of the Polish Army in such a Soviet war on the west was not the defense of Poland or even to aid in the consequences of nuclear attack but their assignment was to take part in the invasions of Belgium and Denmark.

A good synopsis can be found at:
Missing from that narrative is that Kuklinski’s two sons died suspicious deaths which parallel the KGB’s doctrine of revenge.

Re: Poland's former leader on trial

"Simply stated, the organs of government of the PRL were not a lawful sovereign government of Poland but a proxy colonial administration acting on behalf of the Soviet Union"

Just a thought, but have/did any convicted criminals (convicted in the PRL era) try such a defense to escape their sentences? Couldn't such a decision set a precarious precedent for others to try and manipulate? Could a thief, for example, claim that the he was unfairly tried by a proxy colonial government?

Re: Poland's former leader on trial

Even proxy colonial governments would be expected to maintain civil order. Pickpockets and rapists would and should be expected to be punished. That, however, is distinct from crimes against the state. In practice, subsequent governments issue pardons, amnesties and commutations in cases of crimes against the previous state.

Examples of sustaining civil and criminal law precedent from dissolved governments are found throughout the Southern United States. The U.S. courts sustained contracts, criminal convictions and legal precedent issued by the courts of the states that had seceded from the Union and were in rebellion despite considering the government of the Confederacy to be illegitimate.

To do otherwise would be for courts to presume that there are times or places without law. Courts do not recognize such a possibility.

Re: Poland's former leader on trial

As someone stated earlier, this is the biggest waste of time and public resources. It will accomplish absolutely nothing.