Poland and Polish Discussion Group and Forum

Welcome to the original English language Poland and Polish discussion group board. This message forum is a place where English-speaking Poles, foreigners (expats) living in Poland, and anyone with a genuine interest in Poland can discuss and read the views of others concerning Poland. Subjects include: Polish news and current affairs; Life in Poland; politics; genealogy research; Polish culture and history; advice and tips on visiting Poland; Polish property and investment issues. The aim of our group is to increase awareness of wonderful Poland using the English language and allow and foster the honest debate and exchange of opinions on anything vaguely related to Poland and Polish - positive, negative and/or neutral! To state the obvious: all opinions and views expressed on this site are solely those of their respective authors and are not necessarily those of anyone else! Messages consisting of ads will be deleted.

Links:  Poland Directory; Polish Language Forum; Factbook Poland; Photographs of Poland; Polish TranslationA Town in Poland; Map

Poland and Polish Discussion Group and Forum
Start a New Topic 
1 2
Author
Comment
View Entire Thread
Re: War Crimes committed by the United States of America

Colonialism was a very good thing back in the days of European Empires. If it wouldn't have been France, then Vietnam would have been forced to bow down to another dominant white power

Re: War Crimes committed by the United States of America

Its nice to hear the regular comments made by those who think the US is the white knight of the world, sadly too many polish/Americans show more allegiance to the US than to Poland.
I have no intention of knocking the vast majority of American people as most are decent and honest, here I am knocking the style of government and its propaganda machine.
The Vietnam war and the war in Iraq have one thing in common, that is it started with a lie and continues doing so, One must never forget that America is only interested in getting involved when its effects there own strategic interests, (where is America in countries in Africa etc)
The American government and system is becoming more and more disliked by clear thinking people.
One good thing about the EU is that America will be a non entity...it may be one days turn for America to be invaded, all in the name of justice!

Re: War Crimes committed by the United States of America

OK offbeat. Time to put away Mao and turn Chavez off. Night night.

Re: War Crimes committed by the United States of America

OK offbeat. Time to put away Mao and turn Chavez off. Night night.

Because one dares to be critical of US foreign policy doesn't mean your a communist or a red, I can see that McCarthyism is well and alive in the US.
People living in the United States need to remember that they are not Gods chosen race but they are only 300 million people of the world of 6 billion!

Re: War Crimes committed by the United States of America

--(where is America in countries in Africa etc)—

“President Bush's legacy is sure to be defined by his wielding of U.S. military power in Afghanistan and Iraq, but there is another, much softer and less-noticed effort by his administration in foreign affairs: a dramatic increase in U.S. aid to Africa.

The president has tripled direct humanitarian and development aid to the world's most impoverished continent since taking office and recently vowed to double that increased amount by 2010 -- to nearly $9 billion.”

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/12/30/AR2006123000941.html?nav=rss_politics/administration

Re: War Crimes committed by the United States of America

“President Bush's legacy is sure to be defined by his wielding of U.S. military power in Afghanistan and Iraq, but there is another, much softer and less-noticed effort by his administration in foreign affairs: a dramatic increase in U.S. aid to Africa.

hmmm I carn't believe what I am hearing, ok America is a golden knight.
please tell me why is America so hated?????

Re: War Crimes committed by the United States of America

jealousy

Re: War Crimes committed by the United States of America

Of what, precisely?

Re: War Crimes committed by the United States of America

OFFBEAT

ARE YOU FROM FRANCE?

Re: War Crimes committed by the United States of America

Simon

Where would Europe be now if the USA stayed home in WW 11 mark my words in the near future all of us will be rulled by allah unless something is done to stop it now. I think we have 2 things to worry about now TERROR AND GLOBAL WARMING. I think the USA should stop sending aid to other countries and worry about the poor people in our country. I am very conservative except in these areas.

Re: War Crimes committed by the United States of America

“please tell me why is America so hated?????”

There will always be those that have distain for anything that disproves their philosophical tenets. The United States is the pre-eminent example that a pluralistic liberal democracy can thrive with an open economy based on self determinism and not social welfare. Internationally the United States has pursued a policy that is not premised on a pseudo-real-politik which legitimizes the self interests of dictatorships and potentates (per the U.N. model)

To simplify one's understanding:
The current chair of the United Nations Human Rights Commission; Libya
The nation with the highest immigration for the 60th consecutive year; U.S.A.

Malcontents compromise their values.
Free people vote with their feet.

Re: War Crimes committed by the United States of America

"Because one dares to be critical of US foreign policy doesn't mean your a communist or a red, I can see that McCarthyism is well and alive in the US."



Yes it is offbeat. Alive and well. Thats why people from all over the world flock to these shores to raise families and live the American Dream.

'America the Beautiful
America the Mighty
America, the land that God continues to bless'

The problem with all these malcontents is that all they know how to do is moan and complain. None of them offer any ideas.

Anyway..

Re: War Crimes committed by the United States of America

Mike,

Serious question.

Please explain the American dream and why it is not obtainable by the average joe in Poland?

Re: War Crimes committed by the United States of America

Seriously -

American Dream is the concept that anyone in United States, regardless of background, can live a prosperous, fulfilling life IF they are willing to pay the price (hard work, commitment, sacrifice)

America is a very competitive society where kids are thought to compete in all areas of life very early on, another words, Social Darwinism.

Social mobility is not hard at all. It is especially prevalent amongst the children of immigrants, who for the most part exhibit strong drive and desire to succeed.

If you're looking for a social saftey net and can't handle working 60+ hours per week the America is not for you. Try France.

But if want to live as a free citizen in a representative democracy and have ample of opportunity to pursue your goals and ambitions then USA is the only place to be.

Re: War Crimes committed by the United States of America

The reason why an average Joe in Poland (and many in the US for that matter) cant achieve it is because they are stuck in socialism and expect free handouts and a free ride.

In US there are generations(!!) of people who have done nothing but lived off federal, state, and county welfare. Why work - that government check will come in the mail like clock work. Lazy bastards.

I have spent enough time in Poland over the last 10 years to see plenty of self-made people. I know Poles who think Poland is the greatest place on earth. They're the hard working ones. I also know several who complained in Poland, and now complain in the US. Everything is bad, the government is out to get you, etc etc etc Cant stand to be around those malcontent freaks.

It's hard to change the way people think and perceieve the world around them, it takes years, depends on family upbringing, etc

Re: War Crimes committed by the United States of America

"In US there are generations(!!) of people who have done nothing but lived off federal, state, and county welfare. Why work - that government check will come in the mail like clock work. Lazy bastards."

Case in point: New Orleans. From the Mayor on down there are multitudes just waiting for someone (anyone)else to clean up the mess. This while most of the Missippi coast is already fully functioning. In the blizzard of 1978 Boston was closed for over a week. You could spot the native northerners. They all picked up shovels and cleared out their walks and streets. In the welfare neighborhoods social service agencies had to dig people out of their dwellings.

Re: War Crimes committed by the United States of America

I'm afraid too many polish people have been brainwashed by American propaganda, and sorry to say it but need to be de-programmed so that they can live in reality, The fact is also that polish people who settled in the United States where just no bodies in Poland and because they managed to have a few more dollars than there countrymen they then suffer delusions of granduer (sorry Mike C) There are the types that return to Poland and claim to be big shots, eating out and flash american dollars.
Most polish people dislike what america has to offer, They dislike more american stooges

It would be nice if you could answer a few questions Mike C than just throwing insults!

Re: War Crimes committed by the United States of America

“The fact is also that polish people who settled in the United States where just no bodies in Poland”

This statement is just so wrong on so many levels. Presuming it were true, what precisely would be wrong with a place that enables –nobodies- to succeed, thrive and prosper? As to the list of –nobodies-: there has never been a time in American history that successful Poles have not come to America and still further fulfilled their capacity for greatness. Pulaski, Kosciusko, Paderewski, Brzezinski, Shalikashvili, Sienkiewicz, Milos, Polanski, Kaminski, Holland, Krzyzanowski, Modrzejewska and Koprowski to name a few.

“Most polish people dislike what america has to offer”
Wrong. 62 percent positive.
http://www.worldpublicopinion.org/pipa/articles/views_on_countriesregions_bt/168.php?nid=&id=&pnt=168#US

So which is it; mass brainwashing or mass dislike?

Re: War Crimes committed by the United States of America

offbeat, offbeat...you are so wise

Please tell me more

Re: War Crimes committed by the United States of America

“The fact is also that polish people who settled in the United States where just no bodies in Poland”

I'm here referring to people like Mike C and Co.

Re: War Crimes committed by the United States of America

“I'm afraid too many polish people have been brainwashed by American propaganda, and sorry to say it but need to be de-programmed so that they can live in reality”

OK…because when you are happy where you live and love your country you’re ‘brainwashed’ or ‘programmed’…right

Offbeat, it’s hard to take you seriously bud. You claimed a while ago that this ‘forum is run by Jews’ .. In fact you seem to be full of all sorts of conspiracy theories. Tell me more

You have nothing positive to say about anything and get mad at people who do.

Sour grapes? Things aren’t working out for you?

Well, can’t say I feel sorry for you

How come you have nothing positive to say about anything?

“The fact is also that polish people who settled in the United States where just no bodies in Poland”

Before you start insulting my parents and grandparents you malcontent asswad, they didn’t leave their country by choice. Neither did majority of those who settled in America.


Slepowron - dont even bother with offbeat..Anyone with some sense wouldnt write that crap. It's sad, really.

Re: War Crimes committed by the United States of America

what did you do in Poland offbeat, max, or whatever your name is?

Re: War Crimes committed by the United States of America

Once again trying to win the arguement by insults, All I'm doing is helping polish people living in poland the truths of americanism

Re: War Crimes committed by the United States of America

"The fact is also that polish people who settled in the United States where just no bodies in Poland”

whos insulting who here?

Bottom line, you dont live in USA, you dont live in Poland, but you're such an expert.

Keep up the good work!

Re: War Crimes committed by the United States of America

BTW offbeat, thanks for that spirited, intelligent debate. I enjoyed it.

Re: War Crimes committed by the United States of America

Thanks likewise....no hard feelings, I have my point of view and you have yours! mmmm

I still want to hear from you about the war in Iraq and Vietnam ....

Re: War Crimes committed by the United States of America

Thanks for the reference, Slepowron
Mike C might want to read this link or perhaps he better not, it might upset him

http://www.worldpublicopinion.org/pipa/articles/brglobalmultiregionra/306.php?nid=&id=&pnt=306&lb=btvoc

Re: War Crimes committed by the United States of America

Bottom line, the only way we can avoid these conflicts in the future is to become less dependent on Arab oil. There is no other way.

I have several college and high school friends now serving in Iraq. My older brother is a United States Marine. Im not the best person to discuss this with.


Now I must go. Teeing off in 3 hours, need my sleep.

Re: War Crimes committed by the United States of America

""The fact is also that polish people who settled in the United States where just no bodies in Poland”"

You have to admit that there is a lot of truth in this. Although, of course, there are exceptions. Poles are not adventurous by nature. They don't have that colonial spirit of adventure like many Western Europeans had and have. The same sort of 'no-hoper' Poles moved to Germany in the 1980s and 1990s and are now moving to England and Ireland ...

Re: War Crimes committed by the United States of America

"So which is it; mass brainwashing or mass dislike?"

Something of both.

Brainwashing through Hollywood movies. Dislike through jealousy of what the majority (plebs) see on the screen and believe 100%.

Re: War Crimes committed by the United States of America

"“The fact is also that polish people who settled in the United States where just no bodies in Poland”
I'm here referring to people like Mike C and Co. "


BTW I was raised and educated in the US you idiot. Came to the US with my parents as a little kid.

Never planned on going back to Poland, but had to take advantage of the new capitalism

Re: War Crimes committed by the United States of America

offbeat, you never said what you did in Poland.

My guess is you were either a peasant on a collective farm or a taxi driver.

Re: War Crimes committed by the United States of America

That's not nice, Mike!

Listen to an average Pole some time. You'll notice that they even use the word 'America' in a hallowed, excited way.

Re: War Crimes committed by the United States of America

offbeat, you never said what you did in Poland.

My guess is you were either a peasant on a collective farm or a taxi driver.


Well Mike C another good observation, yes I suppose I am a peasant as we are like little ants in this capitalist system working to support the rich and greedy, and a taxi driver? absolutely, I reckon I've spend most of my life driving my family, friends and relatives to all sorts of places..

Re: War Crimes committed by the United States of America

Listen to an average Pole some time. You'll notice that they even use the word 'America' in a hallowed, excited way.

Hans I agree with some of your comments on this forum, I must say its hard to get some people to listen to reason, guess I have to keep chipping away slowly.
The point I was making about some polish people who work abroad, they come back to Poland and by there own behavior try to put down and insult there fellow countrymen, I agree that most of these people come from the country and were once very poor, but managed to make a few dollars in America (usually low level job) and go back to Poland thinking they are big shots...you know the usual stunts, flashing American dollars, treating people like dirt, they think because they lived in America everyone has to bow before them.

Re: War Crimes committed by the United States of America

MikeC-

I’m not “bothering” with offbeat, but occasionally one has to pour cold water on a rant. The telling point is his (and those of his ilk) tendency to:
1. Contradict themselves.
2. Confuse opinion with fact.
3. Use ad homonym attack.
4. Rely upon non-sequitors.
5. Change the focus of their argument (thesis shift).

I’m sure there is a ready audience amongst the Gauloise smoking dilettantes to this form of diatribe but you can’t deny the humor in a line such as “I must say its hard to get some people to listen to reason”

I suppose when one confuses dogma with reason that that seems true.

Re: War Crimes committed by the United States of America

""The US has been lucky in having avoided war crime charges against its involving in the Vietnam War"

Oh really?

How about the Soviet Union who trained and equipped communists overthere? Or the French who started it all?

Learn some history"

Mike are you saying that the US committed no war crimes during the vietnam war? Or are you just deflecting?

What about Tiger force?

Re: War Crimes committed by the United States of America

"But if they choose to live in that way in their part of the world, why not leave them that way? "

This is also my view

"Bottom line, the only way we can avoid these conflicts in the future is to become less dependent on Arab oil. There is no other way. "

Yes it is all about oil not about oppressive regimes - plenty of those in africa who are left alone to oppress as they wish because they do not have oil or whatever.

""The fact is also that polish people who settled in the United States where just no bodies in Poland”"

This is not technically true. Many titled Poles who had money fled Poland during the last 200 years of oppression. Many settled in the US perhaps because it accepted immigrants without question in those days. You had to have money just for the long journey in the old days. Post WWII the UK was more the focus because of the Polish government in exile being in London. These days the type of people the US attracts are those who want to make a lot of money quickly whatever the risk (as they would be working illegally). Hungry risk takers? Are those peasants and how do you define peasant in this day and age?

Re: War Crimes committed by the United States of America

I also hate the term "a nobody". In this day and age a nobody could be a somebody waiting to happen.

Look at someone like JK Rowling. Was she an impoverished single mum when she first wrote harry potter and look at her now...

Re: War Crimes committed by the United States of America

Offbeat

I think it is evident that you and I run in different circles because I personally do not know any American Poles who visit Poland or do business in Poland, and treat their peers with contempt because they have more money in their pocket. Quite the opposite actually. Look at all the charities, aid programs, scholarships, funded by Polish Americans over the years.

Maybe all the peasants who come to Greenpoint or London to work construction have a habit of flashing their newfound cash when they return to Poland. I don’t know any of those people personally. I take it you do and have had some bad experiences.

In South Florida, there is a stretch of prime oceanfront commercial real estate local real estate agents refer to as “Little Warsaw”, as almost every single office/apartment building is owned by Poles. Quite a feat for a bunch of ‘nobodies’ who came to US with nothing many years ago. Many such places exist in the US. Maybe you can come and actually see for yourself what these ‘nobodies’ managed to accomplish. Most of their kids went off to best schools around.


Unfortunately Poland hasn’t been the best place to live in over the last 200 years. Wars, occupations, struggle for freedom took their toll. That’s why these ‘nobodies’ came to the US. And most of them made sure that their children never forgot where they came from and they maintained their traditions with pride.

But see, that’s the thing you seem to have a problem with – they actually made something out of nothing. They didn’t complain, moan, or blamed others.

Re: War Crimes committed by the United States of America

"I also hate the term "a nobody". In this day and age a nobody could be a somebody waiting to happen. "

Very true. That list is long and growing...

Re: War Crimes committed by the United States of America

"Mike are you saying that the US committed no war crimes during the vietnam war? Or are you just deflecting?"

I am saying that these issues are:

- complicated

- the general public does not have complete information

- 2 very separate wars and should not be banded together. Vietnam took place at the height of Cold War when 'containment' was the policy of the day.

- USA does NOT commit war crimes. Certain elements have a way of criticizing everything American while turning a blind eye and/or justifying atrocities committed by totalitarian and leftist regimes every day around the globe.

Re: War Crimes committed by the United States of America

"USA does NOT commit war crimes. "

You are very certain of this. Yet you have just admitted that it is very complicated and the public does not have complete information. How can you be certain of something if you do not know all the facts?

Mike you know I like you a lot and we agree on a lot of issues in respect of Poland. But I really don't understand why highly intelligent people all come out with the same lines when America is mentioned. It seems there is never any intelligent debate with americans about america's faults.

We discuss the Uk or Poland for example and we come to a concensus that these countries have their good points and bad points, yet when the US is being discussed only good points are allowed and anyone who disagrees is a commie sympathiser. As none of us appear to have extreme left wing views this seems some just an excuse to not delve any deeper into a debate and to nip it in the bud with insults or accusations of jealousy. We all of us on this forum live in fairly affluent countries so what would we be jealous of?

I've come across this "I love america" attitude among many many americans including one of my best friends who emigrated from the UK at age 11 and just cannot see beyond the america is perfect mentality. America is no more perfect than any of the other countries we discuss. Why should it be?

Re: War Crimes committed by the United States of America

I’m not “bothering” with offbeat, but occasionally one has to pour cold water on a rant. The telling point is his (and those of his ilk) tendency to:
1. Contradict themselves.
2. Confuse opinion with fact.
3. Use ad homonym attack.
4. Rely upon non-sequitors.
5. Change the focus of their argument (thesis shift).

LOL....
Is this the best you can do win a argument? Why not answer the questions. Every time you critical of American you are served a bucket load of abuse and insults...America is a beautiful country and people pretty nice, but say something bad about the country, you are branded a bad guy? true

Re: War Crimes committed by the United States of America

- 2 very separate wars and should not be banded together. Vietnam took place at the height of Cold War when 'containment' was the policy of the day.

- USA does NOT commit war c- 2 very separate wars and should not be banded together. Vietnam took place at the height of Cold War when 'containment' was the policy of the day.

- USA does NOT commit war crimes. Certain elements have a way of criticizing everything American while turning a blind eye and/or justifying atrocities committed by totalitarian and leftist regimes every day around the globe. rimes. Certain elements have a way of criticizing everything American while turning a blind eye and/or justifying atrocities committed by totalitarian and leftist regimes every day around the globe.

Mike C LOL...continue living in fairy land, for some reason America has a exemption from facing criticism and charges against war crimes

Re: War Crimes committed by the United States of America

Another Ania-

There are many flaws to the United States. I’ve mentioned several on this forum as has MikeC. The reason you and others perceive that you can’t debate what you perceive to be America’s flaws is that most of the argument posited start with a set of presumptions that are just patently false. On that premise most Americans can’t be bothered to engage in discussion with commenced with falsehoods. I, for one, gamely will try to correct the record so that there can be a foundation for productive discourse. Usually my refusal to blindly accept the America-as-pariah dogma is met with ad homonym attack as those putting forth an anti-American point do not have a basis outside of stereotype and dogma with which to attack the U.S.

Just over the last days here:
The U.S. isn’t helping Africa. (Demonstrably false)
The majority of Poles dislike America. (Notably wrong)
America only cares about oil. (Never mind about Somalia, Kosovo, Cuba and Korea to name a few. Hmm, could the real reason be strategic interests in defense of self and allies?)

By all means everybody, disagree with U.S. policy (the U.S. fought enough wars for people to have that privilege) but please have the intellectual rigor to build ones argument based on some premise of truth. Repeating an opinion, no matter in what language, and how often, does not make something true.

offbeat-

By all means ask a question. Starting with on open inquiry and not insulting those whom you are asking usually works. Listening to their response can open a dialogue.

Re: War Crimes committed by the United States of America

Slepowron all you appear to be saying is get your facts straight before you attack america.

Not sure if you are referring to my comment about oppressive regimes in Africa vs Iraqi oil but I meant the US does not invade oppressive African states or in fact other countries that have oppressive regimes. My reason for saying this is that I seem to remember the public reason for the Iraq war was to overthrow an oppressive regime. Really it seems it was to get hold of oil reserves and get rid the unfriendly dictator who would stop access to such reserves. The oppressive regime in saudi arabia is however allowed to flourish because saudis are friendly with the US and supply them with oil. One oppressive regime is ok while another is not....

I'm sure the US gives lots of aid money to africa. That wasn't my point.

Communism used to be the enemy. The new enemy seems to be islam and the driving force for that appears to be the US interest in israel. The US achilles heel of israel has meant that the US oil interests are now under threat because of islamic extremist hatred of israel and its US sponsor. Islam appears to have replaced communism as the threat to the american dream.

I guess the difference with the Iraq war and the other conflicts you mention is that I thought the UN did not back involvement in Iraq?

"Repeating an opinion, no matter in what language, and how often, does not make something true."

I am sure you will agree that this statement can be equally applied to both those attacking the US and those defending it. I constantly see the "you must be a communist" phrase used whenever anything negative is said. Again repeating this does not make it in any way true.

My facts are probably not as straight as they may be were I not suffering from insomnia at this moment and were it not nearly 3am here.

Re: War Crimes committed by the United States of America

By all means ask a question. Starting with on open inquiry and not insulting those whom you are asking usually works. Listening to their response can open a dialogue.

Thanks for the advice, another condescending statement and typical arrogant American.
My initial comment may not have won me a public
relations award, I don't care, I have a very strong opinion on this matter,
American has got away too often and never made to account, It has friends in repressive regimes if it suits them.
Read how Harold Pinter views America, true in every word.

http://nobelprize.org/nobel_prizes/literature/laureate
s/2005/pinter-lecture-e.html

And what about that famous Russian author now living in Vermont, USA, "There is no difference in Capitalism or Communism it is devoid of morality"

The sad part in all this is Poland has like a cancer been infected by "Americanism" and will be poorer for it!

Re: War Crimes committed by the United States of America

"The sad part in all this is Poland has like a cancer been infected by "Americanism" and will be poorer for it! "

I've not noticed this where my family is from. That area is as it always has been very infected with national fervour for Poland. Not sure which approach helps Poland more other than the fact that people still there are keen to work hard to make Poland better.

I do have a cousin who is very pro America because he went to work in New York for a while. It's perfectly understandable to fall in love with the place when you have been there. Even not having visited - I remember as a child in the UK being fascinated with everything american in the 70s. There are many wonderful things about america and a lot of the people I met there are really warm and friendly. Just because I don't approve of US foreign policy does not mean I am anti america myself. It's only really the Iraq war and Israeli foreign policy that has swung opinion among many previously us-philes around the world.

Re: War Crimes committed by the United States of America

Not sure how Poland will be poorer by love of America. It may be tacky. I think leaving Poland to come and work and settle in the UK will hurt Poland more unless those who gain skills here return.

Re: War Crimes committed by the United States of America

“all you appear to be saying is get your facts straight before”
Yes.

“US does not invade oppressive African states or in fact other countries that have oppressive regimes”
Except for Somalia, Haiti, Panama; to name a few. Again the strategic defensive needs is a better indicator.

“new enemy seems to be islam”
A more precise term is Islamo-Fascism. The U.S. supports multiple Islamic states.

“The US achilles heel of israel has meant that the US oil interests are now under threat because of islamic extremist hatred of israel and its US sponsor.”
Curiously, of the U.N. Security Council members the United State was the last to support the creation of the state of Israel. Why did the others change their view? Perhaps the U.S. is not the one selling out for oil.

“I guess the difference with the Iraq war and the other conflicts you mention is that I thought the UN did not back involvement in Iraq?”
Except for at least 18 U.N. resolutions requiring specific actions that were ignored by Iraq; of course the U.S. could also choose to ignore the U.N. but then who would pay the bills of that chatter-society.

……………………………..

“I don't care, I have a very strong opinion on this matter,”
No you don’t, yes you do.

“Poland has like a cancer been infected by "Americanism"”
From over here it actually looks like the U.S. has been imbued with “Polanism”

Re: War Crimes committed by the United States of America

"Except for Somalia, Haiti, Panama; to name a few. Again the strategic defensive needs is a better indicator. "

Well they seem to also step in when it appears that scores of refugees will flood its shores.

"Curiously, of the U.N. Security Council members the United State was the last to support the creation of the state of Israel. ."

Why is this relevant to what is happening now?

"From over here it actually looks like the U.S. has been imbued with “Polanism” "

An interesting statement - can you expand.

Re: War Crimes committed by the United States of America

“scores of refugees will flood its shores”
To some extent with Haiti but virtually no Somalis made it this far. The guiding principles are considerations of “strategic-defense-needs”

“Why is this relevant to what is happening now?”
It shouldn’t be. It is a miniscule 20,770 sq km of mostly desert. The majority of “Palestinians” resided (and reside) on the East Bank of the Jordan River. Which is to say: more of the prospective nation-state of Palestine is dispossessed by Jordan (ruled by nomadic Hashimites) than by Israel. Germany, Finland, Hungary and Poland each gave up more arable land and more population to assure peace rather than perpetuate intractable war. To use the existence of an Israeli state as justification for Islamo-Fascists destroying; what, stone Buddhas or nightclubs in Bali is ludicrous but somehow this reasoning has been accepted as the ready evidence that the U.S. and Israel are fomenting the conflict. If that is the case then Germany should start lobbing Katyusha rockets into French schools and suicide bombing French buses over Alsace-Lorraine. Israel is not a reason for Islamo-Fascists but rather an excuse.

“An interesting statement - can you expand.”
The United States did not get from France, Germany or even Britain:
A refusal to cede ones governance to a central state.
A national spirituality and trust in faith tied to patriotism.
And; significantly, an overarching implementation of a societal philosophy and belief in the precept of “for your freedom and ours”.

Re: War Crimes committed by the United States of America

well said slepowron.

agree 100%

Re: War Crimes committed by the United States of America

"To use the existence of an Israeli state as justification for Islamo-Fascists destroying; what, stone Buddhas or nightclubs in Bali is ludicrous but somehow this reasoning has been accepted as the ready evidence that the U.S. and Israel are fomenting the conflict. If that is the case then Germany should start lobbing Katyusha rockets into French schools and suicide bombing French buses over Alsace-Lorraine. Israel is not a reason for Islamo-Fascists but rather an excuse."

We both know the destruction of stone buddhas was nothing to do with Israel or even with Islam. Some groups feel more strongly about territorial disputes than others, usually those who consider themselves marginalised by a greater force - e.g. basques, chechens etc.

Tourist areas which are populated by westerners and are poorly supervised seem to me a perfect target for those wishing to make a point against the west whatever that point is.

Out of interest why does the US continue it's public support of israel?

Re: War Crimes committed by the United States of America

A national spirituality and trust in faith tied to patriotism.
And; significantly, an overarching implementation of a societal philosophy and belief in the precept of “for your freedom and ours”.

America cannot understand that people don't like what they see in that country and do not want there system of government.
Many countries have had a system of government which they have been happy with for generations and now America wants everyone to do as it sees fit. It will not work.
What America is doing in the world today only hightens world tensions, this crap "for your freedom and ours" LOL goes back to the fifties ie the cold war period, you can fool somebody once but not all the time.

Re: War Crimes committed by the United States of America

OFFBEAT

I THINK YOU ARE FULL OF CRAP If the USA stopped everything and stayed home for 50 years you would probably start posting that we don't do anything to help the rest of the world . The only thing we didn't do in Vietnam was finish the job Hanoi Jane had something to do with that.

Re: War Crimes committed by the United States of America

So far I've avoided even reading this thread - the title is daft enough.

We should remember that while the US is the dominant superpower (for the moment) they are likely to be accused of all sorts of things. It was the same in the halcyon days of the British Empire. There's nothing wrong with Americans feeling patriotic, they have more to be proud of than most nationalities.

Whenever people start sounding off about how heavy handed they are (it would be more of a surprise if they weren't, given geopolitics) I always want to remind them that the US is a nation founded on and rooted in democracy. (And let us NEVER forget that the Founding Fathers were British radicals!!) It has its fair shair, and no more than its fair share, of gun wielding red-necks - but which which country doesn't have such people? Tibet?

Given the choice, I'd much rather live in the US than in the 'utopian' dictatorships they (and we, together) are tackling in the war on terror.

And before I'm accused of being too pro-American, read my lips: Jane Fonda was NOT to blame for losing the Vietnam war.

Re: War Crimes committed by the United States of America

Jane Fonda should have stayed in Vietnam. Why didnt she??

Oh - that's right, she wouldn't be the righteous anti-war hero making millions of $ writing about her 'experiences'.

What a cheap publicity stunt that was. She is nothing but a traitor.

Re: War Crimes committed by the United States of America

"There's nothing wrong with Americans feeling patriotic"

True

"they have more to be proud of than most nationalities."

How can you substantiate such a comment?!

Re: War Crimes committed by the United States of America

Mike do you not feel even a tiny bit sorry for all the vietnamese men women and children who lost their life to prove a point? Do you not feel sorry for all the US vietnam war veterans whose lives were ruined. Do you not feel bad for the families who lost sons?

Do you realise just how aggressively the US attacked this small country? What was the point in the end? Do you not see that it was wrong to carry on a war for so many years when it was not going anywhere? What did it even have to do with the average american in the street?

Did vietnam really achieve anything positive (other than lessons learned - or were they)?

Re: War Crimes committed by the United States of America

Americian soldiers didn't lose the war the politicians pulled us out before it was over and held our troops back keeping them from annilating North Vietnam let the generals run the war and the politicians run the country the same thing is going on in Iraq now

Re: War Crimes committed by the United States of America

As I understand it, most of the normal US soldiers in Vietnam were conscripts and wanted to be back home with their families rather than being in a war without apparent reason. Now the generals, arms manufacturers and certain politicians were a different matter....

Re: War Crimes committed by the United States of America

"To some extent with Haiti but virtually no Somalis made it this far."

Double check - in one year nearly 11k were admitted.

Re: War Crimes committed by the United States of America

CEZAREK

WHERE DID YOU HEAR THAT FROM I SPENT 2 TOURS IN VIETNAM 1962 AND 1964 AND DIDN'T HEAR THAT FROM ANY OF MY FELLOW SOLDIERS WE DID OUR JOB I WAS AT THE DANANG AIR BASE TROOP G AIR 17TH CAV

Re: War Crimes committed by the United States of America

Usaproud,
How did you feel about being there? It must have been a difficult, dangerous and strange place to be.

Re: War Crimes committed by the United States of America

When I was there the first time it wasn't bad, Danang was just a small airstrip when I got back the second time it looked like the Atlanta metro airport things had really escalated 1962 63 64 only about 350 KIA. A lot of my friends were killed in Vietnam one of the officers that was in charge of my company was killed his name was Robert M Caliboso he is on the Vietnam Memorial wall in Washington DC he was a helicopter pilot we use to take chopper rides in California out over the ocean he was a great guy from Hawaii later 1966, 67 and 68 a lot of my younger friends died there. I know that they all believed in what they were doing there. It's so important for all the soldiers to believe in each other and our leaders Jayne Fonda did more harm the the Viet Cong did and I know the soldiers in Iraq believe in being there they aren't sacrificing them selves for the pay check. I believe in what President Roosevelt said talk softly and carry a big stick. The USA has problems like any other country all we can do is make it better for our children but overall this country is a great place to live. I believe that if another country or individuals attacks us then we have to finish the job.

Re: War Crimes committed by the United States of America

“America cannot understand that people don't like what they see in that country and do not want there system of government.”
And yet over a million people a year immigrate into the U.S. and societies globally emulate American culture and lifestyle.

“Many countries have had a system of government which they have been happy with for generations and now America wants everyone to do as it sees fit.”
How is it that Canada and the U.S., with two different forms of government, have the longest border in the world without standing armies patrolling it?

“this crap "for your freedom and ours" LOL goes back to the fifties ie the cold war period,”
Only off by a hundred twenty years (at least). It was the motto of the 1830-1831 uprising and of every subsequent Polish struggle for freedom.

………………………………………………

“Double check - in one year nearly 11k were admitted.”
Which constituted perhaps just under one percent of immigration into the United States with Somali immigrants having usually spent over three years in refugee camps prior to legally immigrating into the U.S.

“Out of interest why does the US continue it's public support of israel?”
Well, the motivation certainly isn’t oil. They don’t export any and we aren’t pleasing those that do. Might it be because Israel is a state premised on liberal democratic principles with a free market economy surrounded by despots presiding over hybrids of feudalism and socialism.

“basques, chechens etc.”
The Basques, Chechens and Tamils, for that matter, are not attacking New York, Madrid or Bali. They are fighting for their self determination.

“We both know the destruction of stone buddhas was nothing to do with Israel or even with Islam.” “those wishing to make a point against the west”
Yes! There you have it. Not Israel, not the U.S. not stone Buddhas; we are dealing with an element that detests the West; which is to say; liberal democracy, open markets and personal self determination. They hate that we send our daughters to school, that we tolerate diversity in our society, that we allow individuals to challenge precepts in art, literature and music. If you think they hate America I assure you that they hate you Ania and offbeat even more.

By the way; the Vietnam War, which was started prior to United States involvement and continued after the U.S. left, involved actions where the U.S. successfully prevented Soviet hegemony expanding into the Philippines and Indonesia. At the same time the cost (financial and political) of supporting the war brought about the schism between China and the U.S.S.R. and sped the eventual collapse of Communism in both. More people died after the U.S. left the region. Let the record show that there were no meaningful oil reserves in Indo China then or now.

Re: War Crimes committed by the United States of America

I thought china was still communist. Have I missed something?


"Might it be because Israel is a state premised on liberal democratic principles with a free market economy surrounded by despots presiding over hybrids of feudalism and socialism."

You don't think it has turned into a despot itself then? The enfant terrible of the middle East?

"The Basques, Chechens and Tamils, for that matter, are not attacking New York, Madrid or Bali. They are fighting for their self determination."

No, they are attacking what they see as the enemy. They are considered very much just as evil in the places they attack as you see islamo fascists. Do you not see the similarity between the cause these groups believe in and the cause of those who believe in palestinian oppression? I am sure you have heard of the intifada and its origins and the reason it started.

"Which constituted perhaps just under one percent of immigration into the United States "

11k is not next to nothing in terms of actual people. It may not be large proportionally in relation to the general population of the US. Is a true refugee in comparison to economic migrants illegal?

"we are dealing with an element that detests the West;"

What are stone buddhas to do with the west??! How can you presume that an extreme islamic-focused group only thinks about the west in its destructive actions when history clearly demonstrates otherwise?

"I assure you that they hate you Ania and offbeat even more."

You are not trying to understand my point.

"Let the record show that there were no meaningful oil reserves in Indo China then or now. "

In respect of vietnam - it was in the 60s and oil reserves were not what they are now. As you know, the US had a different international agenda post wwii and focused on avoiding the spread of the domino effect of communism. Vietnam and its disasterous worldwide impact in terms of the opinion of america changed that agenda.

Re: War Crimes committed by the United States of America

cezarek

So far I've avoided even reading this thread - the title is daft enough.

Good one Cezarek...



Obviously we can't agree on this topic, this was my worst fear when I posted the topic, as Americans never admit to error or defeat! How true!

Just taking a different angle to this debate, both these wars were started by lies and caused serious divisions in the community.
It divided families, governments, and put people on the streets, where it many instances police were used as political tool in demonstrations.
The Vietnam War is a thing of the past and clearly the US administration beat criminal prosecution, it is hoped that the current administration will one day be tried for the war in Iraq and the likes of Bush gets the same punishments in meats out on other people.

Re: War Crimes committed by the United States of America

"It is not the critic who counts: Not the man who points out how the strong man stumbled or where the doer of deeds could have done better. The credit belongs to the man in the arena, whose face is marred by dust and sweat and blood; who strived valiantly; who errs, and comes short again and again, because there is no effort without error and shortcoming; who does actually try to do the deed; who knows the great enthusiasm, the great devotion, and spends himself in a worthy cause; who at the worst, if he fails, at least fails while daring greatly. Far better it is to dare mighty things, to win glorious triumphs even though checkered by failure, than to rank with those poor spirits who neither enjoy nor suffer much because they live in the gray twilight that knows neither victory nor defeat." President Teddy Roosevelt
We need more of this today from the people of the world

Re: War Crimes committed by the United States of America

He also said :

There is not in all America a more dangerous trait than the deification of mere smartness unaccompanied by any sense of moral responsibility."
Abilene, KS, May 2, 1903

Re: War Crimes committed by the United States of America

President Roosevelt also said

"Thrice happy is the nation that has a glorious history. Far better it is to dare mighty things, to win glorious triumphs, even though checkered by failure, than to take rank with those poor spirits who neither enjoy much nor suffer much, because they live in the gray twilight that knows neither victory nor defeat."

Re: War Crimes committed by the United States of America

I look forward to a future in which our country will match its military strength with our moral restraint, its wealth with our wisdom, its power with our purpose.

Re: War Crimes committed by the United States of America

“I thought china was still communist. Have I missed something?”
The common ownership of the means of production ended there some time ago. With a thriving stock market and even venture capital firms China not longer meets the criteria of a Communist state. In many ways China is functionally a plutocracy or oligarchy.

“You don't think it has turned into a despot itself then? The enfant terrible of the middle East?”
I’ll risk being pedantic here but a precision in terminology is necessary. “It’s”, as in nations, cannot be despots only individual leaders can be despots. As to the enfant terrible you’ll have to cite examples. If you are considering the recent engagements in Lebanon the context was that Israel withdrew several years ago from the area of Southern Lebanon that it held to prevent Katyusha rockets from striking Northern Israel. The Lebanese government agreed that it would prevent cross border attacks against Israel. The Lebanese government failed to prevent the attacks and refused to take concrete steps to prevent future attacks. By way of comparison; precisely how many schools being shelled from Albania should Greece tolerate before Greece exerts military force against Albania.

“No, they are attacking what they see as the enemy.”
But they define the enemy as those that are preventing their self determination; they are not traveling half way around the world to attack exemplars of a life style with which they disagree.

“What are stone buddhas to do with the west??!”
Afghanistan was a longstanding recipient of foreign aid, the Taliban did not wish for Afghans to receive aid directly from foreign institutions so the aid agencies agreed to have the Taliban act as middleman in distribution. Upon learning that the Taliban was financing Al Qaeda and other terrorists with the money, the aid institutions cut off the funding. Japan and Sweden continued to fund preservation works on the Buddhas. This angered the Taliban which in retaliation destroyed the artifacts. In the mind of the Taliban their action was a reprisal against the West.

Re: War Crimes committed by the United States of America

If we are being pedantic Japan is not in the west (I am sure you can probably find a reason for it being defined so)

Slepowron I can't be bothered to carry on debating the finer details of your points as we obviously disagree over the fundamentals. You have pretty much proved my point that even the most intelligent Americans seem to all respond in a pre-programmed way when this type of discussion comes up. What the rest of the world sees as flaws in US foreign policy end up defended to the death. Ok the US is perfect and we are all wrong

Re: War Crimes committed by the United States of America

“you can probably find a reason for it being defined so”
Now don’t be coy; so can you. In discussions of geo-political spheres I accept the interchangeability of “pluralistic liberal democracy” and “West” that is often used in discussions of global dynamics. I prefer the definitive longer form but readers usually accept the short form.

“we obviously disagree over the fundamentals”
I suspect that we don’t. I fundamentally believe that females should be able to attend school and actively participate in society, and that a Hindu should be able convert to Calvinism or a Muslim convert to Hinduism. I suspect you do too.

“all respond in a pre-programmed way”
I assure you that my view of the geo-political dynamics are different than the majority of Americans; even those that support the U.S. involvement in Iraq and elsewhere. I have previously posted my dissent on this forum.

“we are all wrong”
All? As in “everybody” or as in “completely”?

Re: War Crimes committed by the United States of America

Ania, according to all opinion polls majority if Americans currently disagree with our President with regards to the war in Iraq.

I personally, like many freethinking Americans agree with slepowron but those are not necessarily 'mainstream' American views at the moment.

I'm not sure why you keep insisting that all Americans think America is perfect and there is no dissent. Quite the opposite actually. Turn on CNN (Clinton News Network) and listen to what commentators, politicians, activists, etc. have to say. There are many who make a living criticizng our government.

Those who have either fought for freedom themselves or witnessed the struggle firsthand will have a deeper sense and understanding of the whole premise of "for your freedom and ours", as slepowron previously stated.

As far as Vietnam (or Iraq) it is evident that opinions on these subjects run strong. I'm way too young to have fought in Vietnam, but I have nothing but respect for those who served their country.

It's not 'blind' patriotism Ania.

My appreciation of the USA skyrocketed after I spent some time living overseas (including Poland). I believe that ours is a truly perfect republic.

Re: War Crimes committed by the United States of America

"All? As in “everybody” or as in “completely”? "

Slepowron you have worn me down into complete and utter apathy with such questions! Debating with you is a bit like chinese water torture - a drip drip drip of never ending nitpicking......

I am sure we could go on forever into ever-decreasing circles (that thought just triggered a mental image of Dante's nine circles of hell! - feels apt somehow )

Re: War Crimes committed by the United States of America

"I suspect that we don’t. I fundamentally believe that females should be able to attend school and actively participate in society, and that a Hindu should be able convert to Calvinism or a Muslim convert to Hinduism. I suspect you do too."

I wouldn't suspect anything about me if I were you....

I believe that if a society has evolved in a certain way we should not be so arrogant to assume it is wrong and try to change it, just because that is not our view of the world. What you are saying is the same as people in muslim countries thinking that America's way of life is abhorrent and thinking it should be changed.

Some see abortion as brutal murder, others see it as emancipation of females - such diverging opinions evolve over time within groups that share a certain paradigm and although both have very valid points of view are very different. In order to have a tolerant and peaceful world we should respect the right of others to live in societies which they see as normal and we see as perverse.

Mike will probably call me a pinko communist now (oops no longer politically correct!)

Re: War Crimes committed by the United States of America

I believe that ours is a truly perfect republic.


Mike C, I don't believe I am hearing this, Thats what the German people said in 2nd World War.
With this type of attitude no wonder there is no peace in the world, Americans say they have the best, the Arabs say they have the best!
300 Americans want to impose there wishes on 6 billion people. Is that called Democracy? or is it for your freedom and mine
It is only hoped that Americans stay away from Poland if they intend starting up a business.

Re: War Crimes committed by the United States of America

"It is only hoped that Americans stay away from Poland if they intend starting up a business. "

Why? Just because you disagree with american foreign policy does this mean you hate all americans and think they are Poland's enemy?

As I've already said there are many positive things about america but that it is no more perfect than the rest of the world. Offbeat I am sure you do not write off the USA just because you don't like bits of it.

Re: War Crimes committed by the United States of America

As I've already said there are many positive things about america but that it is no more perfect than the rest of the world. Offbeat I am sure you do not write off the USA just because you don't like bits of it.

Another Ania, absolutely, o yes, I was in America in the early 80's and I must say its one of the most beautiful countries in the world, lots to see and visit. I had the benefit of seeing a huge part of the USA. Its people are very nice and when I returned to Australia I thought we were 20years behind the USA, things have changed here and Oz is very much on par when it comes to goods and services at the present moment.
Things that stood out are, big buildings, big cars, big meals, big highways.

I can understand the surprise of a person living in the Polish countryside seeing Warsaw or Krakow for the first time, if he went to the USA he would have thought all his Christmases had come at once.
Thats why most Polish people who go to the USA never return to Poland ( I know some do, but they are the ones who failed to make it happen in the USA)
I'm sure many Polish people living in the states find nothing attractive to visit poland again, (apart from family) but then is it worth it when your always have your hand in your pocket giving your family handouts.

Re: War Crimes committed by the United States of America

I've noticed that many young Poles have an absolute obsession with all things American. Look on myspace sometime and you'll see that enormous numbers of teenagers and young 20s have moved to the US from smalltown Poland. Au pairs, maybe?

Re: War Crimes committed by the United States of America

They just want a piece of the pie Hans.

I don't know if you're originally from East or west Berlin but having presumably lived there while the wall was still up I thought you would understand the mentality better than most on here.

I went to West Berlin while interrailing in 87 and it was far more decadent and wealthy than the UK in those days. They had a massive fun fair with a big wheel going up the main street leading up to the wall and clearly visible by the then comparatively impoverished East Germans. I think it was shortly after we were there that an East German guard was shot rushing from his sentry post to try and jump the wall.

The temptation of the grass being greener on the other side is incredibly strong for some and will lead people to take all sorts of risks just to see and touch and feel the other side.

Re: War Crimes committed by the United States of America

No, I'm firmly from the west. But East Germany was always much more prosperous than Poland under communism. Yopu're right about berlin in the 80s though. London has probably overtaken it now in many ways.

I don't really understand the obsession Poles have with America. These young kids are au pairs, fast food workers, cleaners, and probably worse. I would suggest they would be better staying at home and getting an education and staying in Poland. This is where the real opportunities are and will be in the future. and for those without initiative why not go to England and work? This makes mores sense than working illegally in the US.

Re: War Crimes committed by the United States of America

"I would suggest they would be better staying at home and getting an education and staying in Poland. This is where the real opportunities are and will be in the future. and for those without initiative why not go to England and work? This makes mores sense than working illegally in the US. "

Hans do you realise how little many people in Poland earn???! I am sure you spend enough time there to know this very well. Until employers start paying more it is hardly showing initiative to stay there unless you already have money in the family to invest in new ventures. It's hardly surprising so many are unmotivated to do a good job. I'm surprised some people even bother for the pittance they get.

I agree that it seems crazy to go to the states and work illegally when you can go to the UK. However, in the states you can earn a great deal more and I guess that's the incentive despite the risks. People see friends going to the US and coming back loaded with cash so they want that too.

Re: War Crimes committed by the United States of America

"I would suggest they would be better staying at home and getting an education and staying in Poland. This is where the real opportunities are and will be in the future."

Agreed. Ironically, there are many Americans (whose parents came from Poland) who went back to Poland in recent years and made a ton of money taking advantage of opportunities in areas that were wide open for the most part. The comparative advantages of having real business and financial knowledge were enormous only a few years back. That gap hasnt even begun to close.

There are no excuses for leaving Poland now.

Re: War Crimes committed by the United States of America

Mike it takes money to make money.

Re: War Crimes committed by the United States of America

that's an excuse. Ideas start money, not the other way around.

Re: War Crimes committed by the United States of America

There are no excuses for leaving Poland now.

Mike C, There are many reasons why people leave there country of birth, political, economical, work, education etc. I think it is a insult to polish people by saying, "you stay in Poland", the average wage in Poland is approx 3000zl minus tax = approx 2100zl per month, you try living on that sort of income, not likely.
I don't blame people leaving Poland to get a better opportunity, Its up to the Polish government to align wages to other EU countries, which I think will take a very long time to occur.

Re: War Crimes committed by the United States of America

>>that's an excuse. Ideas start money, not the other way around.

Mike come on - i really start to question the fact that you have your own buisness when you come out with this kind of stuff. No idea makes money without investment of some kind, and you know it.

Re: War Crimes committed by the United States of America

Sosh, sorry bud, I cant take credit for that one. "It's the idea that starts the money" is a well known phrase in the US. sort of like "pigs get fat, hogs get slaughtered".

check out Forbes Leadership Library, they actually compile all these sayings.

And yes, without sound ideas all the start up money in the world wont help you. If you have a good idea for a venture someone will always back you up.

But Ive never heard of venture capital money to think of ideas. Hence the saying

anyway - good night

Re: War Crimes committed by the United States of America

1. A proportion of those working abroad now are likely to return and start businesses with money they have earned. They will also have new skills and ideas. This is one positive aspect of the mass migration to the UK. Poland needs to entice these people back.

2. Those I know who live in Poland and plan or have new businesses have families who are already in business and have some capital. They have both money and know-how to back up their ideas. It takes confidence and determination to start a new venture not just imagination. Unless you are talking about a business which can be built up from small inexpensive items or a small service industry starting from your own talents, it also takes money.

3. Many leaving Poland in droves have neither capital nor ideas. (but they may come back with something new to offer see 1. above)

My view is that while people are leaving now, Poland will benefit from this in the future. It has also put Poland's name firmly on the map of the world and will increase interest and future investment in the country. While Poland is not by any means perfect it is generally seen in a far more positive light than ten or fifteen years ago.

Re: War Crimes committed by the United States of America

Since we were on this topic earlier....

naplesnews.com

Fonda visit draws protest

Actress in town to discuss teen pregnancy prevention program she founded

http://www.naplesnews.com/news/2007/feb/24/fonda_visit_draws_protest/?local_news

Saturday, February 24, 2007

Actress Jane Fonda -- high-profile Academy-Award winning film star and demonized antiwar activist -- nearly missed her appearance in Naples for a Planned Parenthood of Collier County fund raiser.

She overslept, she admitted to CEO Char Wendel, who called to remind her TV interviewers were waiting in the lobby of the Naples Beach Hotel and Golf Club at 5 p.m.

Fonda was in Naples to talk about one of her least visible leading roles: as founder of G-CAPP, the Georgia Campaign for Adolescent Pregnancy Prevention.

If Fonda showed up a bit sheepish and late, it was lost on onlookers like the hotel employee who whispered, “God, she looks fabulous for 70.”

If the crowd’s reaction was any indicator, she sounded fabulous, too.

“We have to make sure our daughters claim their voices, “ she told the nearly sold-out, $200-a-ticket dinner, returning to the theme when asked what advice she would give teenagers:

“I would tell the girls they don’t ever have to be second best. We have the full right to be ourselves, including our anger, our strength, our brilliance and our emotions.”

But she had advice for boys as well: “I would tell boys they have the full right to keep their hearts open -- and to never let their heart shut down.”

Fonda’s talk dealt with the crises faced in formative years, crises she remembers from her own childhood, that emotionally blunt some people and make others wither. That’s why the Georgia organization she founded is in the process of financing a year-round after-school program to help teens develop personal goals and motivation.

In its 12 years, G-CAPP has instituted programs such as “Plain Talk” for parents to improve their communication with teens and sponsored a network of Second Chance homes for teen mothers with no resources.

The G-CAPP program doesn't address family planning per se, but what its information calls the “social antecedents” to unplanned pregnancy. Those include poverty, poor parenting, child abuse and violence among other obstacles to teenagers’ vision for a better, more rewarding life.

Parental damage isn’t necessarily “because our parents are mean,” said Fonda, “We have good parents and smart parents and wonderful parents. It’s just that they don’t know how to love.” She cited her own father, actor Henry Fonda, as a case in point.

“I developed eating disorders,” she said of her teen years. ”Nowadays girls get themselves cut up, mutilated -- sliced up with surgeries at a young age. Or it’s shopping.”

Fonda says that only as she came into her 60s -- the “third act” of her life, she calls it -- did she begin to learn inner direction.

“We aren’t meant to be perfect. God is perfect. We are meant to be complete,” she said. Moreover, she said people must learn to embrace change.

“I hope I’m changing right until I die. I hope my last words are “Oh, oh, I get it,’” she declared.

Fonda peppered her conversational style with anecdotes from moviemaking. But her message was serious about what she called “toxic masculinity.” She criticized the vocabulary used -- usually by men with men -- to keep their emotions harnessed.

“By age 5 boys are being told. Be a man. Don’t be a sissy.

“I watch my grandson age 7 1/2. They begin to lose their emotional literacy that early.

“Girls have a decade of knowing their emotions before they have to go underground. So they have more memory of it and can get back to it so much easier,”she said.

Slender, with gold-streaked hair feathered back and blue eyes framed with flattering charcoal mascara, Fonda was a soft-spoken predinner interviewee. That demeanor carried through to a VIP reception where she got no chance to betray the diet that has partnered with her exercise videos. The hors d’oeuvres trays couldn’t close in as Fonda posed for photo after photo with admirers.

Protesters were expected, and about 40, the majority of them 60 years and older, wielded homemade signs from the sidewalks on either side of the Naples Beach Hotel and Golf Club convention center. Most of hand-printed sentiments referred to “Hanoi Jane” and Fonda’s trip to North Vietnam at the height of the Vietnam War in 1972.

A dozen young people, standing apart, carried antiabortion signs directed at Planned Parenthood, but their sympathies weren’t necessarily shared by the older group.

“This has nothing to do with Planned Parenthood,” said Bill Roye, 60 a Naples resident and First Infantry Division veteran from the Vietnam War. “It’s because of Jane’s position during Vietnam.”

Roye had brought a sign proclaiming “Treason is hard to forget.” Another sign nearby announced: “Planned Parenthood OK; Jane, no way!”

“I don’t think her apology was sincere,” he said of Fonda’s later, public apologies for some of the images that came out from the tour portraying her as a North Vietnamese sympathizer.

Fonda acknowledged the protesters early in the evening. She said she had actually kept silent on the Iraq war until recently because of the controversy surrounding her protests during the Vietnam War.

"I'm just a lightning rod. But the issues go much deeper than me," she said. "It makes me sad to see them. There has never been anything in my heart but a desire to help my country."

Re: War Crimes committed by the United States of America

one of the reader comments:


TRAITOR IS ABOUT TO BE HONORED: KEEP THIS MOVING ACROSS AMERICA

Unfortunately, many have forgotten and still countless others have never known how Ms. Fonda betrayed not only the idea of our country, but specific men who served and sacrificed during Vietnam.

The first part of this is from an F-4E pilot

The pilot's name is Jerry Driscoll, a River Rat.

In 1968, the former Commandant of the USAF Survival School was a POW in Ho Lo Prison the "Hanoi Hilton."

Dragged from a stinking cesspit of a cell, cleaned, fed, and dressed in clean PJ's, he was ordered to describe for a visiting American "Peace Activist" the "lenient and humane treatment" he'd received.

Dragged from a stinking cesspit of a cell, cleaned, fed, and dressed in clean PJ's, he was ordered to describe for a visiting American "Peace Activist" the "lenient and humane treatment" he'd received.

He spat at Ms. Fonda, was clubbed, and was dragged away. During the subsequent beating, he fell forward on to the camp Commandant's feet, which sent that officer berserk.

In 1978, the Air Force Colonel still suffered from double vision (which permanently ended his flying career) from the Commandant's frenzied application of a wooden baton.

From 1963-65, Col. Larry Carrigan was in the 47FW/DO (F-4E's). He spent 6 years in the "Hanoi Hilton",,, the first three of which his family only knew he was "missing in action". His wife lived on faith that he was still alive. His group, too, got the cleaned-up, fed and clothed routine in preparation for a "peace delegation" visit.

They, however, had time and devised a plan to get word to the world that they were alive and still survived. Each man secreted a tiny piece of paper, with his Social Security Number on it, in the palm of his hand.

When paraded before Ms. Fonda and a cameraman, she walked the line, shaking each man's hand and asking little encouraging snippets like: "Aren't you sorry you bombed babies?" and "Are you grateful for the humane treatment from your benevolent captors?" Believing this HAD to be an act, they each palmed her their sliver of paper.

She took them all without missing a beat. At the end of the line and once the camera stopped rolling, to the shocked disbelief of the POWs, she turned to the officer in charge and handed him all the little pieces of paper.

Three men died from the subsequent beatings.

THIS IS THE TYPE OF LIBERAL COMMUNISTS POS THAT WANT TO DESTROY OUR GREAT COUNTRY FROM WITHIN. THEY ATTEMPT TO DO IT EACH DAY WITH THE HELP OF THE LIBERAL MEDIA.
___________________________________________________

Re: War Crimes committed by the United States of America

that's an excuse. Ideas start money, not the other way around.

Mike C, I assumed you had some business knowledge, but your comments suggest that you are a novice in the field, a learner. If you have ever been to Poland try telling somebody who has no money, but good ideas to start a business, he would just laugh at you, money makes money, ideas help!

Re: War Crimes committed by the United States of America

THIS IS THE TYPE OF LIBERAL COMMUNISTS POS THAT WANT TO DESTROY OUR GREAT COUNTRY FROM WITHIN. THEY ATTEMPT TO DO IT EACH DAY WITH THE HELP OF THE LIBERAL MEDIA.

Because you call a spade a spade dosn't mean you are destroying a country, what destroys a country is lies and untruths. This has been the case in the Vietnam and Iraq war.

Re: War Crimes committed by the United States of America

offbeat..once again you and your working class mentality have shown that you simply dont get it.

Re: War Crimes committed by the United States of America

Mike how is what offbeat said "working class mentality"?

Re: War Crimes committed by the United States of America

Money is needed to start most businesses. But what most of these Poles lack is initiative / original thinking. Without this all the start-up money in the world we do no good.

1 2