The Lt. Columbo Forum

An area where fans from all over can ask each other questions and voice their own ideas and opinions on anything Columbo.

This Forum is fondly dedicated in memory of  "cassavetes45"  (Carleen Zink),
Columbo's greatest fan and a great friend to us all.
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Re: Grace wheeler is one of the most dispicable murderers of the series.

It IS a terrible murder - killing the doctor to better her own career and get back in the spotlight. How cold can you get. In the beginning, Grace appears to be fairly sane; just wanting to recapture her old glory but as the episode goes on, clearly her mind is all Fubar'd. Despicable may be harsh, but it isn't too far from the truth. It's almost like Kay Freestone not getting Mark McAndrews' job (sorry Mark, no pun intended here). Somewhat of the same motive.

Re: Grace wheeler is one of the most dispicable murderers of the series.

I considered that her disorder could have impacted her judgement and was going to let her off the hook but then i remembered her marriage of convinience.
Regardless. I love watching it. The Lt. Is fine form

Re: Grace wheeler is one of the most dispicable murderers of the series.

I've never really understood why Grace, Adrian Carsini and Tommy Brown are looked at as ''sympathetic' killers when none of them actually qualify in my book. Adrian cared about his wine business and his brother was an ******* but he was still very arrogant and cold bloodied.Tommy was just a bad man who liked young girls and yes Grace knew what she was doing when she did it, just because she was sick and didn't remember it later doesn't change what she did.

Re: Grace wheeler is one of the most dispicable murderers of the series.

I forgot about Tommy Brown he definitely ranks among the despicables in my book. The irony is all three of those are very enjoyable episodes and I love the reveal at the end of each episode.

Re: Grace wheeler is one of the most dispicable murderers of the series.

Well, I think it's important to remember that two of the three mentioned (Grace & Tommy) were clear acts of premeditation. Adrian was more of that anger reaction when hearing his whole world of wine was going to be pulled out from under him.

Tommy Brown, I don't find overly sympathetic, but I can certainly understand his motives. Edna was a brutish, overbearing religious zealot who was pretty much slave-driving him. He didn't even have an option to just stop touring or she was going to end up sending him to the slammer.

Grace, again, I think you have to take some consideration into her illness, which by the end of the show, apparently she maybe had two months to live, into her delusional thought process.

Grace and Adrian I find as more pathetic than sympathetic. But Adrian, I focused on the fact that his world was rather empty. Wine was his life. Sad as that sounds. His brother was basically, in fact, ending his life. It's a twisted case of self defense, if you want to stretch it.

Grace was empty also. Clearly, she never adapted to life away from the spotlight. She craved it to the point of murder.

Re: Grace wheeler is the most sympathetic of Columbo killers

As someone who has praised this episode for years and even wrote a fanfic story sequel to this episode (a Quantum Leap crossover tale where the backstory history of Grace Wheeler and Ned Diamond is "Set right"), I can not disagree more strongly with the sentiments of this thread. To me the reason why this is the best episode of the series post-Season 1 for me is because Grace and her saga has the richest backstory that shows that this terrible act she committed was clearly a combination of illness exacerbating a scenario in her life that never should have happened.

First off, I have long been someone who does not buy the argument of the sainthood of Henry Willis. The bottom line is that he didn't tell her about her condition. In her fragile condition in which she had invested so much emotionally in a comeback, he should have leveled with her. Instead, he wanted to milk a round the world trip out of her before breaking things to her. That to me isn't showing love, that's showing a smothering paternalism that offers a reminder of just why this was a bad marriage for her from the beginning. I'm not saying I see Henry as a bad person who got what was coming to him, it just means that I'm not willing to canonize him.

Second, there is nothing in the story to me that suggests Grace was a gold digger in marrying him. If anything, the opposite comes off. Ned Diamond was clearly the true love of her life but he let her down personally and professionally. And she had developed a dependency on him that when his career died, she was adrift and thus needed a father-figure type of stability to give her a safety net. Henry was clearly willing to give that to her and took pride in the fact that he could have "Rosie" (as he called her) for his own self as a trophy wife even though he admitted he always knew she didn't love him. In this case, I think Henry pursued her out of concern knowing how fragile she was at the time and she accepted that offer out of the belief that she needed stability more than love. I just don't see her as the one who chased him but I'll concede that's purely a subjective impression on my part (caused by the fact that he didn't tell her about her condition. That suggests to me that for much of their marriage he was in control of her life, not the other way around with her taking advantage of him).

Third, the impact of her illness on her mental state in causing her to commit murder IMO can't be understated. If she never had this inoperable thing would she have been driven to commit this act? And add to that, the pain of Ned when he realizes the woman he loved long ago and let down has committed a terrible act. Ned's self-sacrifice at the end to me makes dramatic sense only in the context of someone who also feels his own sense of responsibility for why Grace ended up this way. He let her down and she ended up in an unfulfilling marriage and in the long-run it led to tragedy. In the end, when I say Grace Wheeler is sympathetic, I say that not from that standpoint that her act in her state was justifiable but that the backstory we learn about her and Ned and Henry ultimately reveals someone who didn't *have* to end that way. And Janet Leigh IMO communicates that same sense of vulnerability that in the end also makes her murder in "Psycho" so much of a blow to the gut because in that film, she is also the basically good and decent girl who suddenly on impulse has committed the first bad act of her life and it sends her down a path that ends in a tragedy for her that didn't have to happen. In the end, that's why the episode and her performance strike such a chord with me.

Consider that my "counter-vent" if you will, but I think long-time readers will know why I feel a bit of a vested interest in this episode.

Re: Grace wheeler is the most sympathetic of Columbo killers

Yeah, we're going to have to agree to disagree on this lol.
You passion for the episode is well stated but Grace Wheeler's characterization never resonated with me. Same as Adrian Carsini and and as i was reminded, Tommy Brown. It funny but all three are familial crimes. Two spouses and one fratricide.
I do need to make one correction though. I rerread my post and i actually contridicted myself slightly. I said the episode was hard to watch and then a few replies late stated that i enjoyed it. the contridiction stems from dichotomous feelings of my contempt for the villain juxtaposed with the Lt's actions in the remaining 3/4s of the episode. I loved his interactions with the servents. And he plays star struck very well. The show is fun to watch and Grace becomes more sympethetic as she devolves into "Rosie.

Re: Grace wheeler is the most sympathetic of Columbo killers

We're in agreement on Carsini. I'm put off by the air of elitism to Carsini and his total lack of remorse for committing a brutal act. But the biggest problem is that the script made the mistake of not establishing him as someone who's care was still creating a business doing well, just not mega-successful. Establishing him as an inept businessman only made him look worse because it gave his brother a legit reason for wanting to sell.

With Tommy, I agree that its hard to buy the idea that his conscience was bothering him seeing how anxious he was to recover the parachute, but at the same time it's also believable that given how immersed he is in Gospel music etc. that sooner or later he's going to feel remorse for doing something horrible even if it was "justified".

Re: Grace wheeler is the most sympathetic of Columbo killers

Good to hear from you, Eric. We have discussed this in the past, and I respect you and your view, but disagree to the extent that I think Dr Willis acted with compassion and also within the ethics of his day, which I regarded as long past and much changed. We now believe in a patient's "right to know".

Or do we?

I found some interesting discussions of this online, and apparently it is still a more active topic in the medical community than I thought, with some doctors still opting to tell the family but not the patient, in certain cases. Particularly with Alzheimer's, I was surprised to read that even in 2015, a study by The Alzheimer's Association found that fewer than half of Alzheimer's Disease patients were told their true diagnosis, which was withheld by the doctor and told only to the family, for a variety of reasons. Not sure if the link will work, but here goes:

https://www.washingtonpost.com/local/diagnosis-of-alzheimers-disease-often-withheld-from-patients-report-says/2015/03/23/135e177e-d1aa-11e4-8fce-3941fc548f1c_story.html?utm_term=.36261cceede4

According to the article, the study also cites a 1961 report, which found that nearly nine of 10 doctors made it a policy not to tell their patients they had cancer, often because they thought the patient would lose hope. Those numbers have changed, I assume, but maybe not so much in Grace and Henry's day.

I don't agree with that approach any more than you do, but I'm not inclined to blame Henry Willis for following that ethic at the time, and I certainly wouldn't use it to excuse his murder. Grace's illness itself calls for forgiveness, but her motive is, I think, on its face one of the most repellent and selfish in "Columbo".

Re: Grace wheeler is the most sympathetic of Columbo killers

Hi Ted. Yes, appreciate what you say though you did of course mean to write "Henry" instead of "Ned". :)

I certainly don't defend Grace's motive that makes her act in her state and I understand why that bothers people when they see the episode on first viewing. The nuance I think comes from doing repeated viewings and many people I grant don't always have time for that. The more one watches an episode where we know the plot the more we start looking at more subjective aspects of the episode. We can end up thinking the same way we did at first glance or something new suddenly sticks out and I admit it's in repeated viewings of the episode that these elements came out more. They wouldn't have, I might add if collectively there hadn't been such dead solid perfect performances from Leigh and John Payne. The fact that this was Payne's last performance on film of any kind (even though he lived another 15 years) kind of adds to that too.

Re: Grace wheeler is the most sympathetic of Columbo killers

Fixed the name, just as you were posting :slightly_smiling_face: . Thanks for your thoughts. You're right that repeated viewings, especially by a thoughtful and dedicated "columbo" aficionado (or by a writer such as yourself) will reveal new layers of subtleties, and sometimes change your impressions. This is a tribute to the show and the writing.

Re: Grace wheeler is the most sympathetic of Columbo killers

Wow - a controversial thread is so cool.

I think that Grace Wheeler didn't love Dr. Willis as much as people think because she was really in love with Ned Diamond. That being said, maybe she though she could kill two birds with one stone - resume her career and possibly finally get Ned to marry her after Dr. Willis' demise. It was a trifecta win for her - career, Ned, and the doctor's money.

Re: Grace wheeler is one of the most dispicable murderers of the series.

Yeah and about Tommy Brown; i'm now thinking how creepy he was having the affair with Mary Anne(when she was 16) and later in the episode he's shown hinting toward another relationship with the teen he's giving piano lessons to. Kinda surprised Johnny Cash played this role.

Re: Grace wheeler is one of the most dispicable murderers of the series.

Oh I agree. It's one of my wife's least favorite episodes.
I was thinking about other "dispicable" guest villains and several come to mind. Dick van **** and roddy mcdowell for example. Then i realized the difference was that Grace wheeler, Tommy Brown, and Adrian Carsini each were written as sympethetic characters when they all committed very heinous and premeditated murders. Oh yeah, and Grace wheeler's murder parallels Tommy Brown's slightly in that she sedated her husband before she killed him. I can't count the number of times I've seen these episodes and I just made that connection. . .I'm no Columbo! LOL

Re: Grace wheeler is one of the most dispicable murderers of the series.

Oh I agree. It's one of my wife's least favorite episodes.
I was thinking about other "dispicable" guest villains and several come to mind. Dick van **** and roddy mcdowell for example. Then i realized the difference was that Grace wheeler, Tommy Brown, and Adrian Carsini each were written as sympethetic characters when they all committed very despicable in premeditated murders. Oh yeah, and Grace wheelers murder parallels Tommy Browns slightly in that sheet sedated her husband before she killed him. I can't count the number of times I've seen these episodes and I just made that connection I'm no Columbo LOL

Re: Grace wheeler is one of the most dispicable murderers of the series.

I think that the reason Grace, Tommy and Adrian are portrayed as sympathetic is because, despite the fact that they're guilty of homicide, ultimately they were people caught up in passion. It's not that you have to feel sympathy for them. Each of them had a motive for doing what they did and it's left for the viewer to decide whether or not these characters possess any redeemable qualities.

Since these shows ran from 1 1/2 to 2 hours, the writers had adequate time for character development, which is better than a linear cat & mouse game between Columbo and the perpetrator. The producers were working with some of the crème de la crème of film/TV actors at that time and it would've been a complete waste to bring in so much talent just to have them portray the archetypal comic book-style villain/criminal.

Due to the degenerative nature of her mental condition, Grace is stuck in the past and, consequently, is fast losing touch with reality. This becomes apparent as the episode progresses and she tells Ned that she doesn't see any difference between herself and Rosie, a fictitious character she played in a movie. Someone mentioned that it was heartless for Grace's doctor husband to have concealed her condition from her, yet after Columbo broke the news to Ned, he also deliberately concealed it from her. As for myself, I enjoy the episode, all of the actors involved did an exceptional job and the resolution adds a new dynamic to the show's formula.

Re: Grace wheeler is one of the most dispicable murderers of the series.

I never considered that. Especially connection between Tommy Brown and Grace wheeler. They were both entertainers who felt stifled by their spouses. One out of love and the other because she was a manipulative control freak using Tommy to fund her "crusade".
Wine is still a cultural entity and Adrian's devotion to it was obsessive.
Very astute observation. Thanks for that contribution!

Re: Grace wheeler is one of the most dispicable murderers of the series.

No problem and thanks for the reply. Despite her mental state, she was still cognizant enough to plan out and murder her husband in cold blood. Considering she didn't really love him and it was a marriage of convenience (or whatever), it does present a moral quandary in that financing her career took precedence over a person's life. One can look upon her deteriorating state as an ironic form of retribution for her crime.

Re: Grace wheeler is one of the most dispicable murderers of the series.

Probably one reason why when I made my post in this thread and was in a bit of a "fighting" mode was because by total coincidence I had just rewatched "Psycho" and for the first time could really some similarities in Leigh's performance there with "Forgotten Lady." The big theme they keep stressing about her character in "Psycho" is the whole notion of duality. We see her as a very good and decent person who decides to on impulse steal $40,000 money as a quick solution to unhappiness and it leads to tragedy for her. Much like Grace Wheeler in her ill state, a decent person at one time who now in an unhappy situation shows a duality with her decision to commit a murder thinking it will bring her some nebulous, undefined notion of happiness in a restored career that never really had a chance of succeeding. Marion Crane is frequently troubled and afraid of being caught or found out after she makes her run, and you can see that same vulnerability in "Forgotten Lady" but which on second time we realize is the behavior of someone who doesn't have any idea why she's being asked about something she doesn't remember doing.

In thinking of Grace as "sympathetic" it isn't what she does when committing the crime that's sympathetic. It's how Janet Leigh's performance, echoing Marion Crane in "Psycho" who also did wrong, brings to life a multi-dimensional character that makes you see the duality of good/evil and how unlike a lot of Columbo killers who we just think of as terrible people who were destined to commit murder one day, Grace Wheeler is someone who might have been able to find a better path somewhere further back.

Re: Grace wheeler is one of the most dispicable murderers of the series.

outstanding analysis. Thanks. Grace's duality sets it apart from Adrian's and Tommy's crimes; they we're singly focused. I never saw the parallel between Grace wheeler and the psycho ingenue [ forgot Janet Leigh's character name]. Excellent perspective, again thanks for the insight.

Re: Grace wheeler is one of the most dispicable murderers of the series.

There was nothing sympathetic about Grace. This is a dangerous narcissist who despised the idea of getting older and losing her narcissistic supply (fame), and also happened to be a hard core gold-digging murderer. She is cognizant enough to sneak a tranquilizer pill from right under the maid's nose for her husbands bedtime milk, all before killing him with a pistol (again so she can have stardom). Yes, she's certainly "sick" alright, the poor baby. Going around blowing away her "loved ones" and screaming/berating/removing anybody who wasn't lockstep with her in her lacking performances, aka the dance recital nastiness.

Remember, she grabbed that pill BEFORE her husband even gave her the "no" answer to funding her musical. So she was super-calculating.

I also don't see the similarities with Brown or Carsini.

First of all Adrian's brother was an idiot, selling out the family wine country to a cheap competitor for fast cars and women. I'd hit him over the head too.

Edna was like Grace. She wanted her tabernacle at any cost. Dangling a compromised rock star (via blackmail) in front of adoring fans, so she can buy her church. I mean she's using the power of lust/fame/music to make her money while also scolding the overall process? Also not paying Tommy was kinda mean. Time for some bad tasting coffee.

Re: Grace wheeler is one of the most dispicable murderers of the series.

Her illness predated the calculating. That is the point those of us who don't share your view of Grace would argue. There is no way of knowing how much that influenced her and to what degree.

Adrian by contrast was an elitist (his putdown of Ric because his mother was American whereas Adrian had an *ENGLISH* mother may be the most offensive line ever uttered by an allegedly "sympathetic" killer in any Columbo episode), and a bad businessman who likely would have killed Ric even if Ric weren't a playboy once the chickens started coming home to roost. Served him right that he lost his collection too from my standpoint.

Re: Grace wheeler is one of the most dispicable murderers of the series.

People should be judged by the crimes they commit against innocent victims, and not let off the hook. That isn't justice for the victim. Most murderers who commit unspeakable acts of violence against innocent people are usually ill, yes, and that illness predates the crime. Not sure what the argument or distinction you are trying to make, other than wanting us all to have sympathy for that psycho narcissist, no pun intended. lol

Re: Grace wheeler is one of the most dispicable murderers of the series.

The only distinction I've been making has to do with the character nuance I've seen in the episode over the years and what I felt was a great performance and a great piece of writing in the episode that highlighted the nuance. And this isn't a question of "wanting" anything from anyone, it's merely expressing a different perspective in a discussion. I plead guilty to being passionate about this one because it's my favorite non-S1 episode and is something I've written elsewhere about (and also because one of my fondest memories of this forum is the mutual love of this episode I shared with our dearly missed Carleen)

Adrian Carsini's failure to generate any kind of sympathy from me is something I blame on the writing and the coldness of Donald Pleasance's performance. You could have constructed an *identical* killing in the episode borne out of the *same* impulse, and we'd still have a character who was guilty of a horrible crime *but* he would have some nuance that would make him come off as tragic. "Any Old Port" failed on that subjective level with me. "Forgotten Lady" might have made Grace Wheeler come off to me exactly as she does to you in the hands of a different actress, direction and script. These are the subjective points in evaluating these episodes that I don't think are being appreciated enough. Sometimes the key is to go beyond the pure literalness of the storyline and see the other intangibles.

Re: Grace wheeler is one of the most dispicable murderers of the series.

I have a hard time being very sympathetic to Carsini. Yes, I find him deliciously awful, and therefore enjoyable to watch. But his predilection of snobbery ("My mother was English, which gave me breeding"), downright pettiness ("May our enemies never be as happy as we are right now"), and belligerence (the infamous "liquid filth" scene) pale in comparison to his crime. His brother/victim took TWO DAYS to die, slowly starving and suffocating. I'm sorry, it that it simply one of the most horrific murder methods ever seen on a Columbo.

And Tommy Brown was a groomer/rapist whose line of "the guilt was getting to me" never rang true to me. Say what you will of Edna, but that girl died because he raped her, repeatedly, and she might have sought the justice that she was entirely entitled to. Gee, if only Tommy had felt guilty of THAT, she might have been able to heal and have a fruitful life.

Re: Grace wheeler is one of the most dispicable murderers of the series.

" statutory rape" does not make him a rapist.
It's an arbitrary law that varies from state to state and is often used to entrap and imprison poor and minorities.
Not excusing , just explaining.

Re: Grace wheeler is one of the most dispicable murderers of the series.

This is, of course, open to interpretation, but Maryanne's demeanor did not strike me as someone who had freely given consent to their sexual relationship.

Re: Grace wheeler is one of the most dispicable murderers of the series.

It struck me as an allusion to real life musicians Jerry Lee Lewis and Chuck Berry who had similar problems with the law.
Both were contemporaries of Johnny Cash