The Lt. Columbo Forum

An area where fans from all over can ask each other questions and voice their own ideas and opinions on anything Columbo.

This Forum is fondly dedicated in memory of  "cassavetes45"  (Carleen Zink),
Columbo's greatest fan and a great friend to us all.
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Re: Grace wheeler is one of the most dispicable murderers of the series.

I think that the reason Grace, Tommy and Adrian are portrayed as sympathetic is because, despite the fact that they're guilty of homicide, ultimately they were people caught up in passion. It's not that you have to feel sympathy for them. Each of them had a motive for doing what they did and it's left for the viewer to decide whether or not these characters possess any redeemable qualities.

Since these shows ran from 1 1/2 to 2 hours, the writers had adequate time for character development, which is better than a linear cat & mouse game between Columbo and the perpetrator. The producers were working with some of the crème de la crème of film/TV actors at that time and it would've been a complete waste to bring in so much talent just to have them portray the archetypal comic book-style villain/criminal.

Due to the degenerative nature of her mental condition, Grace is stuck in the past and, consequently, is fast losing touch with reality. This becomes apparent as the episode progresses and she tells Ned that she doesn't see any difference between herself and Rosie, a fictitious character she played in a movie. Someone mentioned that it was heartless for Grace's doctor husband to have concealed her condition from her, yet after Columbo broke the news to Ned, he also deliberately concealed it from her. As for myself, I enjoy the episode, all of the actors involved did an exceptional job and the resolution adds a new dynamic to the show's formula.

Re: Grace wheeler is one of the most dispicable murderers of the series.

I never considered that. Especially connection between Tommy Brown and Grace wheeler. They were both entertainers who felt stifled by their spouses. One out of love and the other because she was a manipulative control freak using Tommy to fund her "crusade".
Wine is still a cultural entity and Adrian's devotion to it was obsessive.
Very astute observation. Thanks for that contribution!

Re: Grace wheeler is one of the most dispicable murderers of the series.

No problem and thanks for the reply. Despite her mental state, she was still cognizant enough to plan out and murder her husband in cold blood. Considering she didn't really love him and it was a marriage of convenience (or whatever), it does present a moral quandary in that financing her career took precedence over a person's life. One can look upon her deteriorating state as an ironic form of retribution for her crime.

Re: Grace wheeler is one of the most dispicable murderers of the series.

Probably one reason why when I made my post in this thread and was in a bit of a "fighting" mode was because by total coincidence I had just rewatched "Psycho" and for the first time could really some similarities in Leigh's performance there with "Forgotten Lady." The big theme they keep stressing about her character in "Psycho" is the whole notion of duality. We see her as a very good and decent person who decides to on impulse steal $40,000 money as a quick solution to unhappiness and it leads to tragedy for her. Much like Grace Wheeler in her ill state, a decent person at one time who now in an unhappy situation shows a duality with her decision to commit a murder thinking it will bring her some nebulous, undefined notion of happiness in a restored career that never really had a chance of succeeding. Marion Crane is frequently troubled and afraid of being caught or found out after she makes her run, and you can see that same vulnerability in "Forgotten Lady" but which on second time we realize is the behavior of someone who doesn't have any idea why she's being asked about something she doesn't remember doing.

In thinking of Grace as "sympathetic" it isn't what she does when committing the crime that's sympathetic. It's how Janet Leigh's performance, echoing Marion Crane in "Psycho" who also did wrong, brings to life a multi-dimensional character that makes you see the duality of good/evil and how unlike a lot of Columbo killers who we just think of as terrible people who were destined to commit murder one day, Grace Wheeler is someone who might have been able to find a better path somewhere further back.

Re: Grace wheeler is one of the most dispicable murderers of the series.

outstanding analysis. Thanks. Grace's duality sets it apart from Adrian's and Tommy's crimes; they we're singly focused. I never saw the parallel between Grace wheeler and the psycho ingenue [ forgot Janet Leigh's character name]. Excellent perspective, again thanks for the insight.

Re: Grace wheeler is one of the most dispicable murderers of the series.

There was nothing sympathetic about Grace. This is a dangerous narcissist who despised the idea of getting older and losing her narcissistic supply (fame), and also happened to be a hard core gold-digging murderer. She is cognizant enough to sneak a tranquilizer pill from right under the maid's nose for her husbands bedtime milk, all before killing him with a pistol (again so she can have stardom). Yes, she's certainly "sick" alright, the poor baby. Going around blowing away her "loved ones" and screaming/berating/removing anybody who wasn't lockstep with her in her lacking performances, aka the dance recital nastiness.

Remember, she grabbed that pill BEFORE her husband even gave her the "no" answer to funding her musical. So she was super-calculating.

I also don't see the similarities with Brown or Carsini.

First of all Adrian's brother was an idiot, selling out the family wine country to a cheap competitor for fast cars and women. I'd hit him over the head too.

Edna was like Grace. She wanted her tabernacle at any cost. Dangling a compromised rock star (via blackmail) in front of adoring fans, so she can buy her church. I mean she's using the power of lust/fame/music to make her money while also scolding the overall process? Also not paying Tommy was kinda mean. Time for some bad tasting coffee.

Re: Grace wheeler is one of the most dispicable murderers of the series.

Her illness predated the calculating. That is the point those of us who don't share your view of Grace would argue. There is no way of knowing how much that influenced her and to what degree.

Adrian by contrast was an elitist (his putdown of Ric because his mother was American whereas Adrian had an *ENGLISH* mother may be the most offensive line ever uttered by an allegedly "sympathetic" killer in any Columbo episode), and a bad businessman who likely would have killed Ric even if Ric weren't a playboy once the chickens started coming home to roost. Served him right that he lost his collection too from my standpoint.

Re: Grace wheeler is one of the most dispicable murderers of the series.

People should be judged by the crimes they commit against innocent victims, and not let off the hook. That isn't justice for the victim. Most murderers who commit unspeakable acts of violence against innocent people are usually ill, yes, and that illness predates the crime. Not sure what the argument or distinction you are trying to make, other than wanting us all to have sympathy for that psycho narcissist, no pun intended. lol

Re: Grace wheeler is one of the most dispicable murderers of the series.

The only distinction I've been making has to do with the character nuance I've seen in the episode over the years and what I felt was a great performance and a great piece of writing in the episode that highlighted the nuance. And this isn't a question of "wanting" anything from anyone, it's merely expressing a different perspective in a discussion. I plead guilty to being passionate about this one because it's my favorite non-S1 episode and is something I've written elsewhere about (and also because one of my fondest memories of this forum is the mutual love of this episode I shared with our dearly missed Carleen)

Adrian Carsini's failure to generate any kind of sympathy from me is something I blame on the writing and the coldness of Donald Pleasance's performance. You could have constructed an *identical* killing in the episode borne out of the *same* impulse, and we'd still have a character who was guilty of a horrible crime *but* he would have some nuance that would make him come off as tragic. "Any Old Port" failed on that subjective level with me. "Forgotten Lady" might have made Grace Wheeler come off to me exactly as she does to you in the hands of a different actress, direction and script. These are the subjective points in evaluating these episodes that I don't think are being appreciated enough. Sometimes the key is to go beyond the pure literalness of the storyline and see the other intangibles.

Re: Grace wheeler is one of the most dispicable murderers of the series.

I have a hard time being very sympathetic to Carsini. Yes, I find him deliciously awful, and therefore enjoyable to watch. But his predilection of snobbery ("My mother was English, which gave me breeding"), downright pettiness ("May our enemies never be as happy as we are right now"), and belligerence (the infamous "liquid filth" scene) pale in comparison to his crime. His brother/victim took TWO DAYS to die, slowly starving and suffocating. I'm sorry, it that it simply one of the most horrific murder methods ever seen on a Columbo.

And Tommy Brown was a groomer/rapist whose line of "the guilt was getting to me" never rang true to me. Say what you will of Edna, but that girl died because he raped her, repeatedly, and she might have sought the justice that she was entirely entitled to. Gee, if only Tommy had felt guilty of THAT, she might have been able to heal and have a fruitful life.

Re: Grace wheeler is one of the most dispicable murderers of the series.

" statutory rape" does not make him a rapist.
It's an arbitrary law that varies from state to state and is often used to entrap and imprison poor and minorities.
Not excusing , just explaining.

Re: Grace wheeler is one of the most dispicable murderers of the series.

This is, of course, open to interpretation, but Maryanne's demeanor did not strike me as someone who had freely given consent to their sexual relationship.

Re: Grace wheeler is one of the most dispicable murderers of the series.

It struck me as an allusion to real life musicians Jerry Lee Lewis and Chuck Berry who had similar problems with the law.
Both were contemporaries of Johnny Cash