Betting on Queen's Park??? Surely not.

http://www.pieandbovril.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=58192&st=25

Do you actually believe that?

If Willie Gray wanted money, there was easier ways of getting it. For example, not spending it on us, or the scrap metal industry...

Remember, there's alot of very angry Rovers fans out there at the moment!

Rovers Tears. They are still crying about us getting there striker that 'they dont rate anyway'

Rovers are just being found out for being the farce that they are and trying to bully players and fans who dont follow there regime. Bullies never win. Were best looking forward to oyur own very exciting season rather than catching there wee blue rattles.

Igor, that's all very well but you have to admit you must be a wee bit concerned at the money we;re spending given that he nearly put the Rovers out of business.

I'm well uneasy about it.

We couldn't get a rescue brigade organised like they did if it goes tits up

Nah, guys. I have voiced the same concerns ever since WG took over. It's definitely not sour grapes with East F*fe. I think the Raith fans are pretty much okay with McManus. It is one of these things.

The problem is that you lot all know what happened at Raith and WG was there during it all. We have seen the 'soft' loans and we know how dangerous they are.

I think that the guys on P&B are genuinely concerned for you lot. Apart from me, most Raith fans would like you to do well. They would be concerned if WG went to any club.

It would kind of be like DB coming to Raith and we all thought that this was the greatest thing ever. You'd warn us too.

Once the power station gets knocked down, there's going to be a lot of money at Bayview.

DB and WG can hardly be compared. so are you saying if East Fife signed a player on similar circumstances from Airdrie would there be the level of whinging and bemoaning of WG as there has been

Angus, you're not reading the post. Raith fans are not fussed about Paul McManus. You'll have to trust me on this. Players come and go all the time at Raith. We're not talking about a Craig Brewster scenario here.

I wasn't trying to compare WG to DB, I was using the only example I could think of, of a man that the F*fe fans would warn other fans about.

DB has nothing on WG. Nothing.

Nothing? could you please explain.

Yes ok I accept this but why did this out cry not happen when East Fife signed Kevin Fotheringham or Steven Tweed

Fozzie was very upfront about his intentions to go. Mcmanus was offered more money by WG prior to his signing a new contract with the rovers round about april 14th of this year. This administrative cock up has allowed Gray to stump up even more money, it seems to many (I for one don't care overly much about him) that Mcmanus is going back on his word... rightly or wrongly thats what it seems like.

Interestingly the SFL is still to decide if he's a contracted player with the Rovers, I'd assume not but if otherwise it could drag on for a while.

As for Gray - we hate him, pure and simple. He nearly took rovers to pieces. If a company CEO had bankrupted one company would you seriously condone him running another?
Whether due to incompetence, stupidity or malevolence Gray is not someone you'd want hanging around the club for longer than 5 minutes

Okay rentopn but under that argument you must feel the same for Caira (Chairman at the time of Anelka) Hutton a major backer and director for the past 10 years and Eric Drysdale the secretary for the last god so many years. for what reason is gray to be hated but these people who were involved at the same time as him to be exempt?

please correct me if my information is wrong

accountability I suppose.

While they were there McGowan, Short and Gray called the shots. McGowan even admits to 'forcing' the anelka deal through.

The others while probably not exactly blameless were not the prime contributors to our downfall, Gray McGowan and Short were.

You now have Gray at your club, it was him that set up our lovely 'soft loans' that threatened to drive us under.

Just wathc yourselves is all I'm saying - is all any of us are saying.

So would you say the secretary and chairman at the time would not have more of a say than a mere director?
Soft Loans I agree were not good but there has been no proof as yet of any soft loans taking place just a man making a difference and enjoying his money. Anyone that is around east fife would see this. for fianancing players woulds your own club no be questioning where much of the money is coming from? and do use not still rent your stadium. who owns that? Hearts maybe?

Sorry to rattle on about rovers facts but I feel its time to protect our chairman and his family but.... was it not Hutton and caira (your current directors) who were partners in the consortium that bought starks park and the surrounding land. but still they are not hated like WG. Did Caira or Drysdale not have soft loans? Please answer as I am curious.

Jonathan u r 1 patronising kent ''u r not reading the post'' feck off back to Pratt Street and lie in yer ain pish

I agree with "Angus" on this one.The others that are still at Starks park must have known what was going on.Its a wee bit like Hamilton un Hain.Still there at our club,but many ov our fans will not forget there part in the Broon years.It least Kenny Mckay resigned fi iz post,un i'll tak ma hat aff ti um.It least hes there week in ,week oot supporting the club.A wonder if the ither twa wid dai the same.
Back ti the Rovers.Theres talk o a new stadium gaun up iz weel. 10,000 capacity.Whar a they gau get the money fer that???If they hink selling Starks ti a company thats gau build 50 hooses or so's gau pay fer it au,there in fer a shock.Oorsells,Airdrie,the Sons un Stirling built new grunds un that was nearlly the end for all ov these teams.How Stirling managed ti get promotion this year still is a mirical ti me.Last year it this time they thought they might have ti fold.Think Moore has ti bi the manager o the year, in my book onywy.
Then they gan on aboot the wages were paying oot fer players.Christ there fans keep greeting aboot no having ony money,yet how can they afford guys that were full time last year????
I'd like ti think Wullies learnt fi his mistakes in the past.As far as we know,he's done very little wrong so far.Anyhow,if Wullie was ti fuck us up,it would ov been some other person.Danskin prob knew what he was doing when he put us down in that area o Methil.

Regardless of all this childish one-upmanship we as East Fife fans seem to be turning a blind eye to us spending well beyond our means. Start throwing money about and everyone seems to happy.

It's laughable. They won't even entertain the fact that a guy who nearly put thr r*vers to the wall may end up doing the same to us. It just turns into 'don't worry it's just sour grapes from the rovers fans' etc

Are you not a bit premature to be saying that we are spending well beyond our means. surely the clubs accounts would tell that and up until now I have heard no news of this. remember there is not only WG on the board of East fife and all decisions are passed through the board structure which contains characters that stood up to DB and Would Stand up again If Wg was driving the club to the wall.

What's a soft loan?

No fixed terms, nae interest.

I`ts someone getting led up a muddy path

Laughable that someone suggested that the rest of the board would stand up to WG as they stood up to DB! The 2 directors in question are still there and did not in fact stand up to DB and will still follow my leader until we are a sinking ship again when this time it may be too late. As for the others Sid was brought in to do the same job as DB though in a more softly softly approach along with our latest director (Sharp?). The people who would stand up to the chairman have not been confirmed as yet as directors as promised. I wonder why?

As for WG, Raith fans are not happy with him but do not give evidence to support their claims. At EF we still are uneasy on the future and how he will affect it. Money (lots for a 3rd div team with limited fan base) appears to be spent and by whom, the club directly or indirectly or personally by WG. Maybe he is our sugar daddy? Who knows?

On the accounting front there have been three mortgage charges on the club this year so we cannot really say we are not in debt. Also there is some modification of the share issue going through at the moment. Maybe just a tidying after the DB era or possible a precursor to a new share issue to pay for the expenditure.

Things are happening maybe for the good but we need to remain vigilant and keep an open mind. This is why it is important to push for our fan's rep on the board to keep an eye on things and put our concerns across.

Angus, all the Raith fans have different opinions on the people that we on the board at the same time as WG.

I was in the camp that thought that Drysdale should have resigned in protest and with his backing he could have led the Raith fans a lot earlier. He didn't do this and I was not happy about this. It was claimed that if he had left, then there would have been no one left to fight our battles for us on the Board. I suppose I have to accept this? I don't think anyone could doubt that he is a Raith fan.

Caira and Hutton? Well, I have always thought that these two were against the deal to bring in Anelka and it was WG that had the casting vote? All this is alledged and I doubt if anyone actually knows. Hutton did resign though and supposedly gave all his shares to the Raith Trust.

Regarding the Chairman's position, I don't think that they are always the most powerful people on a board? Very often they are just there to chair the board.

Regarding the soft loans. None of us had heard about these things until it was time for us to buy the club off these guys. Suddenly the club owed directors fair amounts of money for soft loans, which meant that the club had not been getting hand outs, but had to pay them back. This is the worry I have for you guys at the F*fe. If you are paying all these players good wages, then is it loan free, or will the club have to pay the directors back when they bail? It sounds like you're debt free, then suddenly you're not.

It looks, to me, that you have a lot of guys on the board that could stand to make a lot of money once the chimney comes down and you can start to build on the land around New Bayview. That is why you need to get a Trust man on the board immediately.

This is exactly what happened to Raith. This is why we are warning you.

At last Gray is being exposed! I once saw him look at a map and I could swear he was eyeing up Poland! We all know what happened to the last person that had plans for invasion of that country.

God only knows what fiendish plans he is concocting in that bunker he has under the scrap yard. I say we create as many threads as possible damning this man. Yes, the evidence against him is almost non-existent, but come the next holocaust, I think you will be thanking me and my friends from the Lang Toon.

And no I am not still greetin about Paul McManus right!

thanks for your reply Jonathon.

Ok so you agree that the complete hatred gray should be shared by hatred of Drysdale and the others by the rovers fans. Are you not angry that it was caira and hutton that were part of the company that was planning on making starks park into flats?

Gray has openly admitted that anelka was a mistake but as he said if a world class strikers brother comes to you with 250thou and says your team will play like barcelona then surely its worth a go.

Soft loans by all accounts were used to keep rovers alive and the money dealt with now are of great difference anyone around EF would see that it is WG going into his pocket for the club. if you are correct about Sid being there to act as a softer DB then surely he will be keeping control of the clubs stability for the sake of the owner. Remember the club owns the land not the directors. can rovers say that?

Jonathan,
I don't know the background or outcome of the WG soft loans but assuming the club paid back these loans then one of the folowing must have been in place.
1) A clear verbal agreement, minuted at a board meeting, that these were loans to be repaid by the club.
2)A written agreement of the same nature.

Unless either of these were in place surely the board would have contested repayment on the grounds that
money spent by WG was a "gift".
If they were in place then the whole board is culpable. Someone wrote that the loans were accepted to bail the club out and that seems a liklier proposition.
If there is a lawyer out there what is the position on money given with no agreement either written or verbal (with no witness)
I think Judge Judy would say they were a gift.

This stuff about the Rovers is all very well, but I am far more concerned about our club. Countless supporters of other clubs are warning us about various things, not just the McManus saga.

Meanwhile igor abandons his supposed left wing politics to further burrow his nose into someone else's brown stuff and others reply with the equivalent of LALALALALALA NOT LISTENING LALALALALA.

Unbelievably naive.... and unbelievably sad.

Stewart K

Sort of like an overdraft but without the interest?
Whats the downside?

Ask willie if he is still betting on rovers to get beat

that must be where he is getting the money from, thanks to your pish form in the first half of last season we can now afford to pinch your best players.

keep up the good work neebs!!!

RRFC - architects of their own demise!!!

Well didnt the rest of the scotland this season?

Can I nip the powerstation-get-rich-quick-conspirecy in the bud?

If WG wan't to profit from a land sale of bayview, he could only do so through his shareholding. It's my understanding that he holds the minimum amount of shares to be a director, and that's it - so any profit would be tiny - Dave Marshall would stand to make more!.

And if WG wanted to make money out of EF, why spend £150K+ a year of his own money on player's wages!?!

IMO, no conspiricy or ulterior motives here.

is it his own money,mcgoons money or a soft loan

Not for the first time, I_10 is wrong.

By the end of last year, Willie Gray had more than double the minimum shareholding required to be a director. He might well have even more now.

Dave Marsahll does not stand to make more money than Gray from any land sale on the basis of their levels of shareholding. Marshall has less than half of Gray's shareholding.

Gray is not personally funding a wage bill to the tune of £150,000 per annum. In both respects, this is a gross exaggeration.

And it is quite possible to make a sum of money from a landsale that has no relation to an individual's level of shareholding, if the individual is smart enough. Gray is smart enough.

Apart from that, you've really nailed the powerstation theory.

Read your post a few times - I can't see any FACTs there - can you quantify, enumerate or add substance to your claims?

My £150K figure comes from this - 6 players on £500 a week. Do you think the 700 punters coming through the gate were enough to pay those wages - I don't.

If WG wanted to make money out of a land sale, why be involved with the running of the club at all?

Yes I can "quantify, enumerate or add substance to" my "claims". But not for you. Go and find out the truth for yourself, particularly before you think about posting any more of your false assumptions on here.

You don't half get some pillocks on here! I will admit I'm not clued up on the whole WG thing regarding loans and shareholding etc.

Some FACTS Please why do you argue against I_10 but fail to provide some evidence against his claims?

Just an honest question.

For fuck's sake I don't 'argue'. I am stating as plain fact that what I-10 has said is wrong. If you, I_10 or anyone else needs to know more, go and find out for yourself. I'm not going into it all here. I don't have to.

Some facts please - We'd all like to know. We don't know how to find out - where are the answers hidden, who do we need to ask?
If you know - why don't you just post it here.
Put up or shut up.

Nothing to see here, move along

'Put up or shut up'. Don't make me laugh!

I didn't start this, and I wouldn't have posted on this thread if I hadn't read such a forthright 'nip this in the bud' declaration from I-10 which was based on false information.

I'd like to know where to find the answers too Mr Fact. Can you point me in the right direction as well?

Or are you just a prick tease like the Mole?

My shareholding numbers may be out of date. Last time I checked was in the early days of WG's reign so he may have bought more. What figures do you know of? Has he become a majority shareholder?

Regarding the nip-this-in-the-bud declaration, I stand by it. IMO, WG is not here to make money out of east fife. If he was, the only place his money would be going is to buy shares, in the hope that the powerstation demolition raises the land value of New Bayview - and there's no gaurantee that will happen! Or there is of course this other method that elude to - care to elaborate?

re the wage bill - You don't like my guess, care to make a guess of your own?

Conspirecy theories are my pet hate. They just don't add up. They are a product of paranoia mixed with mis-understanding, and skewed perception.

I guess romanov is only intrested in Hearts to make money out of selling tynecastle...........

Excuse ME!!!

I'm a 21st century liberal sort of guy, but I draw the line at teasing pricks. That particular activity can get messy, as you may know, although I imagine it might be difficult to find yours in the first place...

Now carry on bickering...I'll join in when I feel like it!!

Ah! Mr Mole. Your big moment is tomorrow night. I will be at the Dean Park at 19.15 i.e. before the Trust Board meeting. You have bottled it once already - surely not again.

If its a short meeting I can give you backing.???

Ah, Mr TOC, it's yourself!!

Have you got your PC primed to alert you whenever the phrase "prick" is used??!!

I have no desire to miss an episode of Coronation Street to travel to Lino Land for an audience with you. Tell me, do you pop round to the OTHER chairman's lair (sp?!!) afterwards to recoat your tongue in browniness?

My oft - repeated request to you is to answer the reasonable questions I have asked on this forum...and to answer them for all to see, not just me.

Still, I must admit it's a bit chilly today but high summer is just around the corner and I await your, or your representative's elevation to the board of the club very shortly.

I won't hold my breath....

Ah Mr Mole! Have you joined the Trust yet? That is the East Fife Supportters Trust. If not, why not? Is "more facts please" your mate?

Mr Mole, I am a bit disappointed but not surprised by the personal attack. I have now offered to meet you twice and explain the current situation and twice you seem to have developed backbone problems.
You have chosen your pen name well (I cannot spell pseudonym).

Well there is some pish being said on this thread in my opinion, i wish those that say they are in the know would give us some hard facts instead of the fantasy they are giving us.

Look guys no club deserves to go through what we went through. You have to start asking questions. We had around 2000 fans at each home game and if you are paying double what we can pay on 600-700 fans the sums do not add up.
If you take VAT and other costs what are you left with to pay your players.
If a sugar daddy is paying then fine, but do not have the loss left at the club.

Mole, you are a pathetic, gutless, spineless waste of space who is too scared to reveal his/her identity.

People like you are pathetic.

Not for the first time RR1 your're playing the same old record. Got stuck in the groove has it? Tell us something new or even semi-interesting please the next time you come on here.

You too Mole.

Raith Rovers 1 ,i agree,no one should go through what your side went through.But,should you no be a wee bit worried about your side???
D.L had no £££ ti sign players yet a year down the line you are signing players that were on full time wages last year(and theres more players ti come)
Marv's wages are suppossed to be payed by buisness's or individuals.Are you no a wee bit scared you might be going down the soft loan route.Remember Drysdale was there when Willue Gray was at your club and was bound ti kin what was going on.
Your charging £14 a game next season.This is one way ov recouping some ov the wage bill,BUT say it goes belly up for you guys.Do you honestlly think you'll get over ,say, 1,100 a game if your in the bottom half by xmas???BIG GAMBLE by your board me thinks.
Then theres the new stadium(rumour).THATS MARE MONEY you guys de hay.
Seems ti me the "milk chocalate malteser"was promised cash to prize him away from Herts.When he goes,and he will go to a bigger club,as the squeeze song goes,you'll be really up the junction!!!!!!

Nice of you to say so, igor, although that's a bit rich coming from a supposed communist who worships an old Central American dictator and at the same time allows himself to be permanently seduced by one flash of a wad of cash at a pre season venue.

"Pathetic", yes, that just about sums you up.

Anyway, why are you still bleating on about identity? I thought made up names were what these forums were all about. Or are you really called igor?

I would ask you to answer the questions I have asked ToC, but you're clearly so out of touch with reality I won't bother.

Well R.R 1,i'v just been looking at reports on your questions to the board night.Funny you should have it on the same night as the official supporters club A.G.M.Iz Derrick Broon a directer at starks park.Soonds like the sort o hing he wid dai.Anywy,apart fi au yer supporters arguing amungst there sells,even ti the pint o Eric Drysdale saying"can i say how bad this thread looks from the boards perspective" theres wan point that sticks oot.
"Club finances are tight and every thing in the garden is not of the rosey variety"
No doot ,you un the Raith support o'll put au this doon ti wan man.Wullie Gray.
I'v been reading yer "fan talk" fer aroond 18-24 month,and although Wullie HAD made mistakes,i feel he was made a scapegoat whilst others,still at Raith,got off scott free.
Bearing in mind the statement above about your finances,i stand by my last statement i made today.

BP
yes i am playing the same record and so are some BOD members at your club. GOT THE T SHIRT, IT SAID SURVIVED BY THE SKIN OF OUR TEETH. DO YOU WANT TO WEAR IT?

To the Mole/Wart

I have little interest in wasting any time with you, but lets get one thing straight. The use of a pseudonym on this forum does not mean hiding ones identity for more than most folk who use this forum. I know most people who post here, and a fair few of them probably know me too, so don’t try and compare that to your own devious, sleekit wee ways.

I find you pathetic because for nearly a year now you have anonymously whined about certain questions you want answered, as if everyone was somehow accountable to you. Thing is, you’ve had ample opportunities to have these questions answered by the trust board, in fact if you were a member they would be accountable to you and you could have had as much dialogue with them as you like. The fact that you constantly refuse to do so brings me to the conclusions that you are

1. Spineless

2. Scared of someone/something

or

3. You don’t really want those questions answered because your entire presence here is based on a personal grudge with Willie Gray and you are using East Fife FC as a medium to try and get to him.

I’m also slightly confused with the “wad of cash” comment. Are you suggesting that I’ve taken some sort of payment??

Or Mr Mole must be a tight b'stard and just won't part with the money to join the trust, preferring to rely on others to pay for it's existence. After all, he has asked several times why there is no trust rep on the board of EFFC and appears to be very annoyed about that.

Eeegor

Away and play wi' yerself, wee boy.

You are constantly making a fool of yourself, and you'll notice that fewer and fewer posters are backing you up.

Could that be because still...a year on.... many others realise (only the courageous ones speak out) you and your little clique are as clueless as you ever were about what's really going on at the club.

If you're looking for world leaders to look up to, can I suggest you bin Fidel and replace him with Nero.

Wow!!! What an intellect Mr Mole is!!!!

The Mole has to be right on something, by the law of averages. He is right, of course, that there is lots going on that supporters - or even, whisper it, Mole himself - don't know about about the workings and the finances of the club. The real issue, which runs throughout football, is should they? And why?

I've just bought some goods at Marks & Spencers but I don't know what's going on in the boardroom there. Should I?

There are many examples in Scottish football of this head in the clouds attitude that has ultimately cost clubs dear.

The difference between M&S and EFFC? The former is a major plc with outlets in many towns and cities where few, presumably the Marks family and the Spencer family have anything invested other than "surplus cash". The latter is supposed to be the centre of a local community in which stakeholders invest something far more valuable than money... some people invest their whole lives in a club.

The trouble here is that so many of the so-called supporters leaders are so in bed with the board that they have stopped effectively questioning and challenging.

Believe me, certain individuals are pissing themselves laughing at how disorganised we have all become.

Looks like you just backed up what i've said with your first reply.

Me? Making a fool of myself? Oh the irony!

"only the courageous ones speak out"

How brave of you!

Nup! Jist cannae understand what Mole is actually trying to say! Actually I do. You are talking PISH Mr Mole! Invest their whole lives in a club? Get real mate!

No, Colin, oops mean Mole, that won't wash. The situations are exactly the same: there are investors, shareholders and customers. Both are subject to the requirements of the Companies Act. I'm still waiting for a reasoned argument - from supporters, not from you Mole - as to what makes a football club different.

Just a note re M&s and EFFC is that M&S is a public company and has to comply to a more strict accounting than EFFC which is a private company. Also because it is small enough EFFC can effectively not publish full accounts and is able to manipulate its share dealing.

The abbreviated accounts can be overcome by the shareholders requesting full accounts to show more openness at the club. It only takes I think 10% of the shareholding but I do not think anyone not even the Trust has tried this although it has been said that they are actively monitoring the accounts.

There is Mole, In the Know and a few other who between them seem to think there is :-
Corruption on the EFFC Board
Falsification of accounts by the same
"So called supporters leaders in bed" with the EFFC Board.
EFFC board members working to ruin the club.
Profiteering within the EFFC board
An ineffective Trust.

Assuming that you anonymous people are true EF fans are you just going to sit in your holes and bleat about it ? Are you happy to sit back and watch the demise of your club ? Are you going to continually urge others to act on your subjective thoughts.
Surely it is time you acted as a group and take action before your club is ruined.
Remember if it all goes belly-up you were the fans who knew all what was going on but did nothing.
I suspect we will just get more words and no action.

"Believe me, certain individuals are pissing themselves laughing at how disorganised we have all become. "

Care to name these certain individuals????