I have a concern over the financial health of the club.

I guess that any money from the Lee Murray consortium has now been spent, along with any money from last year's Rangers and Dunfermline games.

I also guess that the interim Stevenson board have no money to invest.

Furthermore, there will have been a drop in revenue through relegation and with the departures of the Hamilton twins, I'm guessing that the commercial revenue stream has dried up also.

So....no money from board investment, no money from commercial activities and a drop in gate money. Couple this with whatever contracts were signed in the Lee Murray tenure .... and the pending tax bill from that period..... would I be realistic to state that the club is not able to meet it's financial obligations and that administration is a very real prospect?

Great to see that supporters are talking about fund raising .... but we need to be careful where those funds go. Giving Rankine a return does not save the club.

Did you consult with SPF before you posted this SP.. em... sorry, NC?

Ahhh! I must be coming across in a very negative manner if I'm being mistaken for SPF

That's not my intent.

What I want to do is draw attention to the fact that the Rankine problem may not be the most pressing and that we need to be careful not to blow all of our limited resources in solving the Rankine problem.

SPF hasn't been on this forum for over a year. Some say that it's because he moved to China but I think it's down to me beating him on a number of issues with my superior intellect - ken laud.

First of all, NC is not SPF, but is a well known, long time East Fife fan.

And he makes some very good points here.

Fan ownership of the club is something I, like many others, have dreamt of for a long time. From the very first meeting Eugene and myself had with Derrick Brown many years ago when we said we were wanting to launch the Trust, you imagine a day coming when you then own the Club but it's never looked like a realistic proposition until now.

At that meeting, old Broony said he didn't think there was any desire or likely enthusiasm amongst the fans for such a Trust. Now, all these years later, he's long gone and we're still the ones here. Not unexpected.

Now, we have a momentous moment in East Fife's history but we can't let the excitement of it all cloud our judgement and I too have concerns.

- Who benefits most from buying the 52% stake and how much is having to be paid for it and over how long?

- If all the money is put into buying the club, just how can the club actually survive as a going concern? How will the bills be paid from the player salaries to electricity to tax and many more?

- Supporters Direct will help us with some due diligence I would imagine, but the financial health of the club and money in the bank is key right now. In many ways, it would be better for the club to go into administration, then be bought and rebuilt debt free. Big danger of that this season is that a points deduction could see us lose our league place if we don't get our asses in gear on the pitch.

- Where does future money and investment come from to take the club forward or do we end up with a club fighting for league survival every season? I'm a very long time member of the Dons Trust and what Wimbledon have done has been remarkable but part of that financial footing is that they had lower non league football to rebuild in and a larger, and I dare say richer, fanbase to generate income. The Trust need to set up a separate monthly/annual fee, and donations, to try and generate this cash, but how deep are the pockets of our fans? And in the past, a lot of them don't seem too keen on giving money for nothing. Do they get a share in ownership like the Dons Trust provide? (and others like Newport County)

- Who runs the club after the takeover? The current board have had their chance and are seen by many of us as being in the current regime's pockets or being merely just puppets. As said in another thread, we need to be wary who we jump in to bed with and I certainly wouldn't start by going back to Lee Murray, unless we want to run hot air balloon rides or he is seen to DONATE a considerable chunk of change to the fundraising efforts. Does he even have any money to invest? Bruce Black would have been a good choice but now his association with the Twiggs makes this untenable. And the same for anyone who comes out of the woodwork as Murray. Donate cash and put your money where your supposed heart is.


Now, I'm sure that all of these points will be brought up and discussed at the meeting on August 30th, but there is certainly no harm in getting some discussions in now (especially since I can't make it to the meeting to raise them!).

It's not being negative but realistic. It is kind of a case of be careful what you ask for, as you may just get it. And get it in one gigantic mess.

Fan ownership of all clubs is the right way forward, but it has to be on our terms. Make no mistake, this is the biggest fight in the history of our club, but you get the feeling that buying the club is only just the start of it, not the end of it.

Fair enough mate. Sorry for being a wee bit suspicious. The main thing is that East Fife survives under fan ownership, if it happens.

We are currently appointing accountants and a legal team. Everything will be examined thoroughly and we'll take it from there. That's as much as I have for now. Hope that helps.

All very interesting points here.

Figures bandied about in other threads suggest the club (presume includes assets of ground and land) is worth iro £800k.

If this is the case is it feasable to approach any of our fine financial instituitions to seek some sort of mortgage or loan on the 'assets', after all, we care about the football club, not the land surrounding it.

Gof, I know in a previous life you had some experience in this field, do you think thats viable?

I know this is not 'fan ownership' but it might be on better terms than offered by the person(s) being bought out and also means he/she/them are gone with no claim in the future.

Personally I would be all for administration (it doesn't seem to have harmed any of the teams who have recently gone through it) but as has been stated the points deduction could see us in right soapy bubble.

Also would be interested in seeing the running costs as it would be a disaster to come up with the down payment(s), only to not be able to pay the bills and end up in administration anyway.

Anyway, heres hoping that someones lotto comes in!

You can't mortgage something you don't own

The stadium and land are owned by the company East Fife Football Club Ltd. This company is owned 52% by Twiggs / Rankine, the other 48% by other people, including the supporters trust.

There is a real possibility that fans could concentrate on buying the club in instalments, only to find that a lack of working capital sees it flounder.

Yeh thats why I said mortgage or loan against assets and not sure if viable.

If a valuation of land/stadium was done, then I'm not sure of the ability to use the 52% share which the trust would own as collateral.

If this was an option, then perhaps trust could be in a position to offer a lump sum of less than the total (£400k) wanted? Afterall, £150k or even £200 now is perhaps a better option for the seller?

Also it may allow trust to borrow more, which could be used to cover running costs in the short term to safeguard against administration.

Not ideal situation, but at this point in time surely every avenue should be explored?

You can't use the club assets owned by all the shareholders to fund a takeover by one party of another's shares.

As for loans taken by the club to fund running costs thîs is a non starter - why would anyone lend in that situation

Is the club not surviving on its present income from gate money and sponsorship? This would continue whoever the owners are, would it not?

Basically, is it costing the shareholders money to run the club at present?

A certain Malcolm Glazer may disagree with you there...

I`d be surprised if we are getting bye just on that

Regards mortgage/loan.The ordinary man on the street is toiling to get a mortgage/loan so see no reason for a bank/building society to dish out one for us

That would suggest the shareholders/board members are using their own money to keep the club solvent, therefore why all the animosity to them if that is the case?

I'll suggest that the owners have not been putting money in but instead have allowed a succession of eager chairman (Gray, Columbine, Murray) to come in and run things - making up the shortful with money from their other businesses.

Instead of suggesting, can you come up with hard facts? By that, I don't mean for you to come back with scenarios which are just a figment of your imagination. All you are doing is possibly alienating people who might want to help the fans achieve ownership.

NC is advising caution and trying to get people to consider some of the factors that might be being overlooked. Enthusiasm is vital but it is not enough on its own. The scenarios NC has posted here are realistic. If you think all this is a figment of NC's imagination, do your own research. You will be in for a surprise.

What about discussing potential solutions to the points originally raised?

It is up to you to justify your comments, not me. You obviously believe you know something, but are not prepared to post it on this forum and that makes me think it is actually just something you suspect, but can't prove, otherwise let everybody in on your secret. By knowing something and not telling your fellow fans, is far worse than whatever the shareholders are supposed to be doing underhand.

Sorry Rab but NC has not tried to hide anything. He has asked fans to consider possible problems before getting carried away takeover talk. The issues he raises are ones that other clubs in our position have had to face. f you do not accept that then fine but at least others will think about it.

The intent of my post is not to alienate supporters from donating cash. The intent is to advise caution on where that cash is best directed.

The way forward is for fans have enough of a shareholding to have a say on who runs our club, with the door open for the right king of benevolent chairman to get involved.

The reason I am questioning the posts is that I can see the same type of comments in the future, even if the fans do gain ownership. What would we do then? We could end up in a situation where nobody is prepared to run the club for fear of accusations, in fact it could put potential investors (fans) off investing in the first place. It happens already with the people who run the SC and the EFST. This is people who volunteer their services to these organisations, but they are targeted as well by some. This is the problem with an anonymous forum like AFTN, which is not a criticism of GoF by the way, I hasten to add.

Well he won't now as he is dead

The glazers took control of the entire Man U shareholding so were able to do thàt. Company law is in place to protect minority shareholders.

Exactly what i,m suggesting.With our crowds and sponsorship deal (dont know the figures but wouldn,t expect it to be that good for a club of our stature)i dont think theres any way our club is surviving on these two alone without some outside help or someone diging into their pocket

I know for a fact when Gray was along the road he was paying all sorts out of his own pocket eg team bus,team lunches and so on..

Guys .....this is the point I am making.....Lee Murray's group were making up the shortfall.

With him gone, we are comitted to the contracts he signed and the tax bill that accumulated during his tenure.....but without the means to pay it.

I suggest that majority shareholder is in this what he hoped was a return on a land sale ...... and that he has never put in any money to run the football club.

How do you know all this, or are you just surmising it all? Do you know for a fact that Lee was putting a lot of money in to the club's daily running costs and do you know how much of a tax bill has accumulated? How much of a shortfall was there that Lee had to cover?

The Trust etc are not stupid and they are already getting legal advice. I think you seem to be more interested in how little the sellers will get from the sale? There will be a fair selling price agreed, or it just won't sell (to the fans at least) and it serves no purpose worrying about how much the sellers will get, or not get. To me it smacks of getting one over on them and is not the way to proceed. Just my opinion.

If that is "just your opinion" then please allow others to express their opinions rather than demaning evidence to prove everything they say.

Every penny Rankine gets is a penny not going to the betterment of East Fife.

If that is your opinion, please do likewise. Where is the evidence you speak of?

Agreed NC. I know you are meaning well, but I am just trying to say that it could be counter-productive if you make statements that cannot be backed up.

Supposing for a second that I'm correct regarding the club's financial state, growing debt and pending tax bill...... how do things play out from here on in.

Let's say come the end of the year, the debt has grown to 40K, and the tax bill for last season comes in at 60K. How will payment be made? Club has no money and shareholders are unlikely to stump up.

So an administrator is appointed. They will seek a buyer ... and the price the buyer pays is whatever satisfies the creditors at that point (from which the administrator takes their cut). The alternative is that the assets are sold to satisfy creditors, but what are these assets worth at that point. Look at how the "value" of the land for Murray Park and Ibrox dropped with Rangers were in this situation.

And the shareholders..... what do they get....very little, if anything..... (less than nominal I'd say!).

Rankine has a choice.....stump up cash to pay the debt that is on the horizon...... or write off the investment completely. Getting 400K is not a scenario.....getting 100K is not a scenario......getting 50K is not a scenario. The ONLY return that Rankine can get is a nominal amount......and that is only IF the trust is willing/able to take on the debt the previous owners left behind.

"Sellers not falling over themselves to sell"....we'll see.

I am not going to suggest what may happen in this present situation, but it does no good talking about calling the sellers bluff to all and sundry on an open forum, as that may be like a red rag to a bull, if you get my drift. Let the people in the Trust with the proper legal advice go about this in a mature way. Gambling is not necessary or recommended. If you want to influence their method of how they should approach this deal, then talk with them confidentially. If you were buying a house, would you be telling the sellers on an open forum, that you are going to get them to sell for as low as you can and say they can't refuse your offer because they have no option but to sell to you? NO!

Is nobody remembering how prime the location is for business and how large the area is. Which large supermarket would jump at the chance of building a new premisis on land like that for starters. What about bifab, perfect location to build a second site. That's just two companies that would buy the land off the shareholders given half a chance. You cannot sit and say they will take a nominal value. Rangers problem was they owed millions and their assetts didn't cover that. East Fife have assetts to pay that off. Why build a bad relationship up with a current shareholders over a hunch that they are going bust?

Scott do you not think that if the land was prime development for a supermarket or Bi-fab for that matter that it would have been sold before now?
The only real value in the ground is for access for any potential development of the old power station as there is no other access possible to that site.
It would be suicide to drag things out with the sellers & even run the risk of potential administration of the club. A 15 point deduction would be disasterous either this season or next.
We will not get the shares for nothing or anything close to nothing so its either do a deal or do nothing & watch OUR club sink into the mire.
This deal just has to happen

Noisy Crossbar
Can you please tell me what you mean by "TAX LIABILITY".The club makes annual losses and consequently pays no CGT?
I presume that the club pays players NI and Income Tax timeously

VAT

Selling a house is a little different to this situation...... there is a marketplace of buyers.

So you think the best way to do a deal is to say to the sellers - Sorry, but this all you are going to get, so lets not waste any more time and do the deal? Are you for real?

What will kill the club is not a 15 point deduction. It is the inability to pay the debt's inherited (present and forthcoming) upon talking ownership of the club.

Hangfire for administration and the supporters get the club and a reduced debt liability......and at that point the club looks more attractive to any potential sugar daddies out there. These want to spend for success, not to pay for the shortcomings of the previous owners.

Nearly,.....but I'd strike the word "Sorry" and phrase it as "having done a value assessment, here is our final offer - the offer expires at noon".

If they take it then we move on. If they don't then the owners are in the position of stumping up cash (which they didn't do when Lee Murray asked for it) or taking their chances in administration.

Have no doubt where the strength lies in these negotiations.

What is this administration you speak of?

^^^ This be the administration I speak of based on my assessment of the situation.

You may look at things and have a different assessment, and I respect that. But I remain to be convinced that all is fine on the East Fife balance sheet.

Seems a strange coincidence that Murray asked the owners for cash, left when it was refused, and now the owners want to sell........ while all the time the club is on a stable financial footing.....but hey, what do I "know"?

Says who? Who is advising the Trust?
Rushing into a deal because you fear a possible consequence is one of the worst reasons for taking a course of action.
If the club goes into administration this season or next season then so be it. The Trust will not have caused that by failing to finalise a deal. The damage has been done already.
This buyout is about securing the long term viability of the club, not about avoiding a points penalty this season. Agreeing to a deal that can't be paid for is only going to postpone administration, and by that time, there will be no possibilty of getting fans to bail us out. The money will have been spent already.

black and gold - exactly. Well said.

Kerriann
Aug 19, 2014 - 5:42PM
Re: The Administration Thread

We are currently appointing accountants and a legal team. Everything will be examined thoroughly and we'll take it from there. That's as much as I have for now. Hope that helps.

Who is advising you and NC?

It's all very well slapping each others back for your posts, but you need to get away from the internet forum culture and into the real world culture.

Rab - do you doubt that administration is possibility?

And faced with that possibility you must surely agree that the value of the shareholding is next to nothing.

Or is there something you are aware of that says all is good on the East Fife balance sheet?

I have no idea if administration is a possibility, but I don't think that it is likely. I'm sure you will find several posts in AFTN by others slagging of the Rovers, Pars etc for being in the red, while proudly stating that East Fife are not in debt. These statements could also be incorrect I suppose, but who should we believe? I think statements like that being made are an attempt to justify the particular posters thoughts on the subject. In your case, you have decided to throw in EF being close to administration to justify what you want to happen and your obvious dislike of the present incumbents that you just want to see lose most of their investment, which is of more importance to you than the fans gaining ownership.

I think we should leave the Trust to do what they are proposing and not rely on a course of action dependent on a hunch.

No.

If a multimillionaire comes in and gives these guys the 400K I'd be delighted. I'd be even more delighted if he/she then handed those shares over to the trust.

Have no doubt my interests are for the future of East Fife.

Administration would only happen on a CVA being agreed.It could result in liquidation

That's correct.

In the event of no one wanting to buy the club as is, the administrator would look at selling off assets and winding up the business.

Good news is that the trust are willing to buy the club

Kerriann, I am unsure how this buyout is going to be funded! There was an AGM not that long ago and no more than a dozen turned up. An EGM was called recently and 18 turned up. I know there are 120+ so called life members on the books, they have only accumulated over the years. That is not a real life total of active trust members. I paid £100 and now we have a bunch of rabble rousers who paid £10, doesn't seem fair, why should I listen to them. Over the years the trust has been pretty ineffectual and only came out when there was something to moan about, then disappeared again into thin air. I know some have helped the club out with player sponsorship and corporate in the past and applaud that. This is a depressed area, where do we get the big money for this buyout. Who is going to run the club? surely not the present trust board, who has any experience in doing this. Tell us what clubs in Scotland have done it successfully, don't quote Stirling I am not 100% sure they are still fully trust run. What monies are the present trust board going to put into the buyout, what are your family going to put into the buyout. If I am correct (maybe my opinion only) instead of helping the club we will be harming it. There have been some good points on this thread but most of the stuff is pie in the sky dreaming.

Post of the week.

far from being"post of the week" ,for someone to hide behind an alias,name another person and ask them to reveal personal financial information on a public forum is contemptible.