"For as long as but a hundred of us remain alive, never will we on any conditions be brought under English rule. It is not for glory, nor riches, nor honours that we are fighting, but for freedom — for that alone, which no honest man gives up but with life itself"

The Declaration of Arbroath in 1320

On Saturday we visit Arbroath, five days before we finally have the opportunity to restore the full powers of democracy back to the people of Scotland. The former coal mining community of Methil can make its voice heard loud and proud. Battered by Thatcher, our pits shut down without any heed for the future of our children or grandchildren we have refused to let them take our pride.

Be seen, be heard on Saturday. Which side are you on?

I'm on East Fife's side as usual.

Get your YES flags along to Arbroath on Saturday.

Get your YES flags along to Arbroath on Saturday.

Fife council tell taxi companies to remove YES stickers from cars.

YES, 100%.

YES.

Yes

This post is not meant to be sarcastic,ironic,funny or sad.I am not expressing an opinion either personal or political and it does not necessarily reflect the views of any group or organisation in the whole world.
I have seen a letter from an English company to a company in Glenrothes which categorically states that if there is a yes vote they will move their business out.

That will be one of many and for that reason - I'm Out!! Categorically NO!!!!

It's a big 'Yes' from me.

If it's a no vote surely the flower of Scotland has to be changed at Scotland games. How can we sing about rising to be a nation again, we had the chance and bottled it.

Guys inthe past couple of days we have seen three high powered English politicians touring our country.to the three of them I say you might need Scotland but Scotland doesn't need you. FREEDOM as the man once said.

A cautious 'Yes' from me.

Think there is alot of hard work to be done and sadly things may get worse before they get better. Have listened to the politicians, the debates, the arguments for and against and to be honest I am a little concerned over some of the issues with currency, disarmament, national security, NHS.... etc etc

Bottom line is.... Scotland belongs to us...The SCOTTISH people. If we get a 'Yes' vote then its up to us to make the decisions that can make our country better. If we don't then we have no-one to blame bar ourselves.

Our jobs for our people...I'm not saying a total ban on foreigners coming here looking for a better life, provided they bring skills we need. But that's another issue for the future.

Think I'm on the soap box, better get off.

It was not a letter you saw, it was a blackmail document. Don't be fooled by these threats. Saying them is easy. Carrying out he threat, and all the upheaval and inconvenience it causes, is another matter entirely.

I,m genuinely now undecided. I was planning yes but I honestly cant stand Eck Scaremonger. That's his stock reply when he hasn't got an answer and I cant imagine having to live with his arrogant presence on whichever TV station we will have. Believe me I don't like Cameron, Clegg or Milliband either but Eck instils no confidence in me that his nationalist policies will ever produce a fairer democratic country Its built on scaremongering

Don't like any of them.do we want to be ruled by the english any longer, a big YES from me, think of our children and our childrens children.their future is in your hands. Our nhs is in your hands . If your Scottish there's is only one vote. YES.it is not Salmond you're voting for it for a better deal for Scotland.

I'm voting no.

everyone to their own choice.

Martin. Surprised you would vote no because you don't like Eck. If a yes vote, independence will be two years later when a Scottish general election would take place. You can then vote for Snp, labour, Tory, greens or who ever. If not for Eck there would never have even been a referendum. Give him credit for that at least.

I actually am still undecided. But any politician particularly a first minister who keeps avoiding answering offering scare mongering solutions has little credibility. It reminds me of the old saying if at first you don't succeed that's the end of skydiving.

Is this referendum about Alex Salmond or the future of Scotland?
Every home game I look about the town of Methil and fail to recognise the once proud coal mining community I used to know. I look overseas and see nations of a comparative size quietly co-existing without engaging in illegal wars. This could be us.
I value our NHS, I am proud of the way that Scotland has conducted itself since gaining its limited powers of devolution; free personal care, free prescriptions, bus passes for older people. With the full powers of independence we can continue to embrace these values.
I'm voting Yes.

Martin, apologies for quoting you again but feel I have make a comment. I think your dislike of Eck is clouding your reasoning. It's not about Eck it's about us!!. I'm an ex coal miner, like my brother, father and grandfather was. I was brought up next to the Wellesley pit where I eventually worked. Did my training at muiredge pit. Father eventually transferred to the Michael pit where my eventual In laws worked. Most school leavers were working, if not the pit then the steelworks or balfours in leven. Double decker buses used pass through Denbeath taking miners to the pits from 5 o'clock in the morning, afternoon and evening as well. Buses to take the women to AEI and the bond. Great times. Not well off by any means but at least pride in having a job.

Successive English governments destroyed all this with politicians who neither cared about scots or used us as an experiment for poll tax. Where has all the oil money gone? 1973 (thereabouts) the first oil was pumped ashore, over 40 years of oil production and where has all the money gone? Ok, common sense says use most Of the revenue and save the rest. Not Westminster. Nothing in the pot and that's why they are panicking. They are poorer without us and we will be better off without them

I may or may not vote for Eck in 2016 but at least my yes vote on Thursday will allow me to vote for a government that will be ONLY with Scotland at heart.

A No vote puts us at risk of being invaded for having WMDs. Be sensible peope

You've just reminded me of how much I hate Nationalism. I was going to vote 'Yes' but following your xenophobic line straight out of a 1933 Hitler speech, I think I'll abstain. If we're to continue be a part of Europe and not an insular, xenophobic nation, you'll continue to get Free Movement of workers - end of story.

Maybe, a 'No' vote, followed by voting for UKIP would be better suited to you....

I have been a socialist all my life and it would require the shift of labour voters to bring home independence. So it concerns me that left wing activists promoting the yes vote have been ridiculed and ostracized by the nationalist power holders the two fishes especially.

The yes campaign is a giant con, where numbers don't matter, just trust us it will all be ok.

Think about it - higher spending and lower taxes, that's magic, sign up the whole world for that if it's possible. Unfortunately it isn't, otherwise every country would do it.

They have, supporting their campaign Jim McColl who is a successful guy but chooses to be a tax exile in Monaco. They also have Brian Souter, who is a rather ruthless capitalist as well as being a rather unpleasant homophobe. They also appeared - last weekend anyway - to have the support of Rupert Murdoch.

For those seeking a "fairer society" bear in mind there is not a single redistributive policy in the white paper. Their campaign is a cynical exercise in pretending to care about the poor and vulnerable to secure their vote, whilst at the same time not really caring as evidenced by their non appearance in the bedroom tax vote.

Think about how much capital they have made about food banks and bedroom tax, yet when their Westminster MPs could actually do something they didn't bother turning up.

Easy to tell people just tick the right box and all your problems go away, another matter actually telling people how you will do this and who actually pays the bill.

I find the WMDs argument the craziest of all. If they were eradicated altogether that would be fine. They are being moved at most 200 miles i certainly will sleep safe in that knowledge. Of course ÑATO will be happy about that or will Eck say they are scaremongering
Finally our proud Scottish regiments could always through haggis in future conflicts or use psychological warfare and subject our foe to repeats of the White Heather Club .
I think the Salvation Army will be more prevalent in coming years

I wasn't sure what that last post was about but I get it now. Don't believe salmon he's telling porkies - but believe Cameron as he knows best. Got it now, fanks.

NO

Martin we have been dependent for over 300 years. Salmond will be dead in 20-odd years, and retired within ten. On the day he dies, how will you justify the fact that you voted No in 2014 when you had your only chance? This is not about one person.

All the things I wrote in my previous post still apply.
Proms in the Park tonight from Glasgow must have given the Yes side a wee half point in the polls. I can't imagine there was much political influence but perfect timing to swing a few votes.

Bob, sorry Fifey you have a short memory if the snp had not sided with the torys we would have not had 18 years of thatcher, pits ravenscraig to name a few that shut and only last week out of 6 westminster mps only 2 bothered their arse to vote in the bedroom task at westminster something oor eck bangs on about.ps no seen u for ages as a wemyss lad will have a pint when we cross paths again its all about opinions

Utter rubbish. Even if this vote was between the Labour Party and the SNP (which it isn't) Keir Hardie would be turning in his grave at those who now wear the red rosettes. The Green Party, SSP and SNP are now the parties embracing socialist values. Disgracefully Labour continue to support weapons of mass destruction and the unelected House of Lords...

Then why is SSP and also Sheridan ostracized the Yes power holders.

It sounds like we share similar values Martin. I'm not a political person. I have voted Lib Dem, Labour, SNP and Green in the past 30 years. I have marched with the coal miners of Methil and protested outside the South African embassy in London during the dark days of Apartheid. Perhaps I am a political person. How can I stand on the same side as the BNP, UKIP, the Orange Order against the country in which I was born? How can I watch my neighbours rely on food banks sixty years after the end of rationing and tick a box on a ballot paper to say I am happy that my fellow citizens are in this position?

I note in amongst the emotional rhetoric that no yes supporter on here tried to repudiate my summary of the yes campaign

Rather telling

What worries me about this vote on thursday,is that this country has been split right down the middle,brother v brother,neighbour v neighbour,friend v friend and no matter what this country decides,it could take years for it to repair.

At last, a post that say`s it all. Win or lose, our proud nation could be damaged beyond repair.

As Bob Marley sang Don't worry be happy,everything's gonna be alright. YES.

In 2007 the SNP promised and had a manifesto pledge that if elected they would scrap the Council Tax. In 2009, once elected, this was dropped. I continue to pay £185 per month in Council Tax and have used that name on this website since.

I love the theory of lower tax and higher spending (who wouldn't). Sadly, there is no rainbow and certainly no pot of gold at the end of it. The financial planning is simply pie in the sky pipe dream stuff. Just like the Council Tax pledge, the reality would be the complete opposite and i don't see how anyone could imagine anything different.

I am a 'No' voter as this is the best option for our country.

Government spending on arts and culture in London last year totalled £69 a head, against £4.60 for everybody else in England.

The think-tank IPPR North calculated in 2011 that the UK National Infrastructure Plan allocated £2,731 of transport spending per head in London and the south-east against £5 per head in the north-east.

Seven out of ten jobs created since 2010 have been in the South East.

As part of the capital spending programme Scotland will have to contribute £400M on refurbishing London's sewers.

The Coalition Government has also been re-jigging the grants that go to local authorities to favour rich south-eastern councils over poor northern ones.

Vote YES.

The UK has been split for a hundred years and more by successive Westminster governments who want everything the UK has got for themselves.

Vote YES.

Ever heard of the Scottish Atlantic Margin?

http://www.scotsindependent.org/features/game_changer.htm

Make no mistake, it's a huge reason (probably the only one) why all the politicians want us in the union.

Vote YES.

If we as individuals were forced to hand over our wages to our next door neighbor who then gave us a small part of it back we wouldn't be happy. This is no different to what's been happening between us and Westminster for years. You can keep yer Union and Monarchy. I'm 100% YES!!

Aye PB. It's all about opinion. If no wins we will whinge about Westminster. If YES wins we will whingw about Holyrood. As les Dawson once said "doesn't matter who you vote for, the government still gets in"

YES we will have a pint together next time we meet, looking forward to it.

Yes it is telling. It tells us that no-one else thinks your post is as important as you do.

Realist's posts were posted on a Saturday and many people would not be bothered with AFTN because they are at the football or out with family etc, hence no much comments on anything. So Martin, you are kidding yourself by that last post. Thursdays ballot is all that matters, so what is the point anyway? The No's pee off the Yes's and the Yes's pee off the No's, making both even more entrenched in their views and both sides are full of emotional rhetoric.

Rather telling.

You have lost me there. My name's not Martin

I post only under my own name if I feel I have something to say. I cant grasp why I would say it from hiding under a hedge as I believe anonymous posters do. To those who think I'm saying no please refer to my initial post. I said I was a Yes voter who is now undecided. I will make my mind up when I'm finished considering the shite both lots are throwing now.

Oops, neither it is. You've lost me too Oui, cos I was replying to Realist?

Sorry Martin, I was reading your post as well and put your name down mistakenly.

IIRC the council tax was to be replaced by a local income tax of up to 3p/£, that's a bit different from scrapping the council tax as you most likely would still be paying £185 in tax, anyway the Greens vetoed the bill IIRC and in 2011 the world had no cash.

Anyway the SNP have frozen your council tax since 2007, would Lab/Lib/Con have done the same?

Yes please

Martin, there is no Socialism with a NO vote. There is, currently, no Socialism in New Labour.

And there is even less in Brian Soutar land. Although I would agree there is little socialism in New Labour who are probably equally as far right as SNP.
However, I just dont trust or have I ever trusted Nationaliist regimes I think history itself would bear that out.
I was along with my wife was actively involved in the Scottish Civic Society movement and campainged strongly for a Scottish Parliament so have no problem with us governing ourselves.
However, I would rather watch Raith Rovers than let that arsehole Salmond and his fishy lot have anymore power to screw our country up.
I would vote yes in a heartbeat if this lot was nowhere near having power, but whilst I may yet vote yes I am struggliing to justify that to myself.

MB. Me again having to comment on your post. Last time I posted regarding your dislike of big Eck clouding your reasoning, I posted that it is no big Eck we are voting for. I REPEAT as you obviously didn't read my post.

IF A YES VOTE, THERE WILL BE TWO YEARS OF NEGOTIATIONS ON ALL THE ISSUES. THEN THERE WILL BE A SCOTTISH GENERAL ELECTION. YOU CAN THEN VOTE FOR LABOUR, TORY, GREEN OR SCREAMING LORD SUTCH.

This is my last reply even you repeat your post regarding big Eck. Me? I like the look of the greens. All depends on Thursday though.

Arrogant Eck has promised an open door immigration policy if Scotland gets independence.
You decide.

Don't know how to break this to you Martin, but Salmond is in power already. Has been for some time. It is called democracy, which is agreeable to most socialists.
I will ask you a variation on my previous question. When Salmond has departed from the political scene, and you are near the end of your life, as you look back how will you justify declining your one and only chance in your lifetime to vote for independence for your country? How do you think that will feel?

Exactly my reservations having experienced his power trip it leaves a lot to be desired. I would ask the same question how will you feel to know you used your vote to fuck up your country for evermore. It is actually yes wallahs like you that make yes hard for me to vote. Stop watching braveheart and the white heather club for half an hour and let reality sink in make your decision on thinking not fantasy.

Salmond's "power trip" has given you the chance to vote for independence. No other politician in your lifetime has given you that chance. Please try to put personalities aside and look at the bigger picture. You have said you would vote Yes in a heartbeat if Salmond was not around. Sooner rather than later he will not be around, but I doubt if you will get a second chance to vote Yes in your lifetime. It's not about Salmond, it is about Scotland.

Salmond has never ever done anything in his life that he has not seen to get him power. His seesawing between Westminster as an MP and running back to SNP when Swinney fucked up. I will vote yes but will never support toss pots like Eck scaremonger.

You and others. You will not be alone. Good man

Remember Martin, a YES vote is NOT a vote for the SNP (or Salmond) but a vote foor the greater good of your Country!!!

The case for independence in five points

1 - Scotland is a country, and like any other country it deserves to get the governments it votes for. As part of the UK, that happens well under half of the time. We don’t affect the outcome of UK elections, so the rest of the UK doesn’t need our help - so why keep subjecting ourselves to governments we rejected at the ballot box?

2 - Scotland will be wealthier as an independent country than it will inside the UK. Even before you discuss possible savings from policy changes (like more sensible defence spending), Scotland subsidises the UK by billions of pounds every year, according to Westminster’s own figures. The longer we stay in the UK, the poorer we’ll get.

You’ll never get a UK government minister or a No campaign figure to actually say straight-out that Scotland is subsidised by the rest of the UK - give it a try if you like. Instead they’ll try to confuse the matter and change the subject by talking about things like spending and debt in order to make you believe it’s true without having to directly lie to you.

Think about it this way - if Scotland was actually being subsidised by the rest of the UK, don’t you think the No camp would be shouting that fact from the rooftops every minute of every day?

3 - Scotland’s future is bright. Oil will last for decades yet, and we sit on the brink of a renewables bounty that could make the entire historic output of the North Sea pale into insignificance. But the UK can’t be trusted to manage it - Scotland is the only country in the world ever to discover oil and get poorer, and unlike almost every other oil-rich nation, Westminster put nothing aside for a rainy day. It also hid Scotland’s wealth from its people for 30 years.

4 - We have nothing to fear but fear itself. Threats that Scotland will be ejected (even temporarily) from the EU are hollow, impossible to ever put into practice. The same applies to border controls. Nobody can stop us from using the pound. No country poses a military threat to Scotland, and the only reason terrorists might attack us is because we’re part of the UK. We’ll still get to watch the BBC.

5 - People are sensible. At the moment, the No campaign has a vested interest in making things sound like they’d be as difficult as possible for an independent Scotland. But the day after a Yes vote, the opposite instantly becomes true - it’s then in everyone’s interest to sort everything out as quickly and cleanly as possible.

If you accept that the EU would want Scotland as a member - and it would - then nobody gains from making that process slow and complicated and awkward.

If you accept that the rUK and an independent Scotland would still be major trading partners and allies - which they would - then nobody gains from a hostile, drawn-out negotiation process.

All parties will seek the best deal, of course, but businesses and people alike want life to continue with as little disruption and upheaval as humanly possible. Nobody wins from a negative approach, and no government will cut its nose off to spite its face.

A yes vote would eventually be of benefit to England. Because the lack of Scottish labour MPs, rUK would be destined to have a tory government for years and at last they will learn what a pseudo feudal party the tories are and hopefully vote them out of existence as it is to be hoped we all will do with the untrustworthy lib=dems at the next election.

1 - Scotland since 1945 has voted in largest number for the party that win 12 times out of 18 elections. If you want to have the government you vote for every time, move to North Korea

2 - ye 13 Scotland's deficit was £12bn , representing 8.3% of GDP including oil. The UK deficit was 7.3%. £12bn meant we spent over £2k more per person than our income so the thing about Scotland subsidising the uk is a myth, and frankly an insult to our neighbours. Some years are good some bad, by being part of 63m you smooth out the good and bad years

3 - myth , Scotland has not got poorer, most people in Scotland have an ok lifestyle, are you really claiming it was better in the early 70s

4 - another myth - we will be out of the EU, even Salmond doesn't try to pretend we won't - plenty people out with the uk in senior eu positions have tools you exactly that. We may get in, we may not, but it is far from clear how long it will take.

Overall - if you thunk ruk will be nice and friendly after a yes vote, think again. They have had 2 years of being insulted by the yes campaign and frankly with this, if I were English I would expect my politicians to screw Scotland over as much as possible. Oil territory negotiations drawn out, no currency, if there is a debt default the uk could well veto EU entry

Its no for me.

I don't have a chip on my shoulder i like english mustard they like haggis have a good laugh with and at them, they think we are a bunch of moaners, we generally are. I have more in common with a geordie or a scoucer than with glasgow bigots , with whom i dont want locked in a room with. so its a no from me.. And Eck is a chancer so be careful with your choice. Peace to all lets not fall oot whatever the result

You have more in common with the Glasgow bigots than you are aware of. The entire Rangers support will be with you on this one, voting 'No' because they are anti-Scottish. Didn't you hear them at Bayview last season, "you can stick your independence up your arse". That's who you are standing shoulder-to-shoulder with on Thursday - people who would rather Scotland didn't exist, who live to celebrate British superiority. People who are bigots. Your choice, BT.

Wow, vote yes so you don't agree with rangers fans

What a chip you have

1 – Untrue – Scots have voted for Labour at every Westminister election since 1955, but by the time of the 2015 election will have had Conservative governments they didn’t want for 38 of the last 68 years. Scottish votes almost never make any difference to the outcome of UK elections, and when they do it’s a very small and short-lived one. Scottish independence will NOT condemn the rest of the UK to permanent Conservative governments - almost every Labour government since WW2 would still have had a comfortable majority without any Scottish votes.

2 – If you’re going to quote figures then use all the figures, Scotland subsidises the UK by billions of pounds every year, and has done for many decades. On average, UK spending is around £1,200 higher per person in Scotland than in the UK as a whole. But on average Scotland sends £1,700 more per person to the UK in taxes. We only get back around 70% of the extra money we send to London. The other 30% is kept by Westminster and spent in England, Wales and Northern Ireland. Scotland generated roughly £57bn in tax and had £64.5bn spent on it. But that extra spending isn’t a generous gift from the UK - it’s borrowing, taken out by the UK government in Scotland’s name. It’s not money from the rest of the UK, it’s money from international banks - it becomes part of the massive debt referred to above, and Scotland has to pay it back.
(And we have to pay it even if we didn’t need or want the things it was spent on - like nuclear weapons, the London Olympics and the HS2 railway from London to Birmingham, all of which Scotland pays billions of pounds towards because Westminster claims they’re for the benefit of the whole country.

3- I’m claiming it could have been so much better from the 70’s onward but it isn’t, yes most people in Scotland have an “ok lifestyle”, but for how long is that going to last? These promised “new powers” for the existing devolved parliament does not mean we will be getting more money or even the money we are currently on, It means we will simply be accountable for raising more of its money. I hope that dispels some myths.

But No MORE money? It’s worse than that. In February 2014 the Daily Record reported on someone who says Labour’s devolution plans will mean LESS money for the Scottish Parliament,Glasgow MP Ian Davidson said the Barnett formula that gives Scotland a bigger share of UK government spending would be lost if the party go for full tax powers for the Scottish Parliament.
The Labour chairman of the influential Commons Scottish affairs committee said it ‘would undoubtedly be to Scotland’s detriment’.”
But even that doesn’t tell the whole story about what Labour proposes for Scotland. The previous month, Ms Lamont had spelled out what the party’s devolution proposals meant in a BBC1 interview:
“We believe very strongly the United Kingdom is about sharing risk and resources, it is about pooling risk, and it is about redistributing out of better-off parts of the United Kingdom into poorer bits.”
Labour’s plan, in their own words, is to redistribute wealth from the better-off parts of the UK (ie Scotland) to the poorer areas (ie nearly everywhere else).
What that means in practice is that Scotland’s money will go to London, and poorer areas will just have to hope that London distributes it to them - something that hasn’t happened in the last few decades.
So here, in a nutshell, is what will happen if the NO vote wins and what it really means for Scotland: Holyrood will have to make huge spending cuts OVER AND ABOVE those already coming down from Westminster, in order to pay for a lot of unnecessary tax bureaucracy, and even more of Scotland’s wealth will be taken away to the Treasury.

4 – No we wouldn’t, this is one of the main scaremongering tactics used by the NO campaign and you appear to have fallen for it. What is certain is that no serious politician, commentator or EU bureaucrat has ever suggested that the EU - an expansionist organisation - wouldn’t want resource-rich Scotland as a member state. So the only real debate is on how Scotland would go from being part of a member state to being a member state in its own right, and if you accept the premise that the EU wants Scotland in, then it’s clearly in everyone’s interests to sort that out as quickly and smoothly as possible.

Think you will find that more Rangers fans go to Scotland games than any other group of fans.And the Celtic fans loyalty is to Ireland and Rome,and the Pope said no to independence.

well we will see where we stand, if it is shoulder to shoulder with proud Scots who along with everyone for the last 300years have been born in the union then so be it. If some happen to be football fans of a certain club so be it. Rather that than with those on a dangerous imotional road trip with the shortbread tin flag waving bigots whos anti english non scense has no foundation. Logic must drive real life decisions. Any how the whole thing is a disaster Scotland was a nice olace zntil thus oush came alonf either way we are foing to see bitterness..

The really sad thing is that the YES campaign won the vote at every age level below 55. After 55 the balance tipped and the word is that 75% of over-65s voted No. That's what lost the referendum and although I voted Yes I am gutted that the future hopes of my children and their children have been blown away by my fellow OAPs. Ridiculous short-term self interest which does them no credit.

Semantics I know, but still an interesting statistic all the same,
If you removed the 66+ vote from the referendum the results would have been;

YES - 54.3%
NO - 46.7%

Not saying the oldies shouldn't be allowed to vote, just showing where the main swing was!!!

Probably made the vote void too that's 101%

Notice how all of a sudden, the talk at Westminster and 'UK' media is all about the English now and what powers etc they will get? Scotland is forgotten now the job has been done!
I am not saying the English shouldn't get what the Scots get/already have, but it is their situation that is now priority and don't forget, if/when they get their own parliament, or English votes only in Westminster, they might decide to have their own independence vote themselves! Where would that leave us then? What do you think they would take as theirs from the rUK if they left the 'family' of nations?

As for them having English only votes by the same MP's who also vote on UK matters, this would be the worst possible scenario for the rest of the UK. Bear in mind, Scottish MP's in Westminster cannot vote on Scottish only issues, as that is dealt with Holyrood by MSP's who may be of a different political persuasion, as is the case now.

Genuinely believe "No" voters will live to regret their decision. I understand them voting "No" to hold on to their British identity. But for those who voted "No" out of fear of the unknown, deary me. As for the scenes at George Square, what an absolute disgrace.

Well spotted Martin, the error is mine with a schoolboy typo, it should have been;

NO - 45.7%

So he can count whoop to whoo

This is the problem with democracy - stupid people get the same voting power as clever folk. Worst still, poor people get the same voting power as the rich. Hardly fair given that rich folk have more at stake.

A simple solution for future elections is to take the vote, multiple it by the voter's IQ then multiple that by the voter's annual income.

We can also have a scaling factor based on age as well - can't have the oldies screwing things up for the rest of us.

That is ageism and you can be taken to court for it

Noisy Crossbar one day you will be old and your priorities will be much different from what they are today.
In every election someone is going to moan because their side lost, grow up the people of Scotland voted NO accept it.
To me it did not matter which way the vote went because I was not entitled to a vote as I live in Sunny California.

Actually, you do not have to accept the result. You can take whatever freedom you have and voice your dislike and distrust at each and every opportunity.

The 3 amigos came charging up to Scotland once they realised there was actually a chance the daft Scots were starting to believe all this 'we're all grown up now and we're capable of running our own country' nonsense.

Made the promises that tipped the balance in their favour, left Mr Brown to ram home the message and cleared off back to Westminster.

When will they honour the promises? who knows.....

Maybe they'll have a bit in fighting to sort out which MPs can vote on the things that affect England first.

Let hope we've not been misled. Surely not!

Mr Brown said he will make sure they deliver on time....but when is that gonna be?

Can anyone else smell something rotten?

We lost it only because of the oldies.

What has anyone over 65 ever done for my generation? Nothing - yet I have to subsidize their flamboyant lifestyle by paying for their pension out of my taxes. And why should it just be oldies that get a pension anyway !?!?

There is an old dear at the end of my street - always moaning at me for playing my music too loud - says my jeans are too low and that my hair is messy! She can talk about mess - her front door step is a mess, must be 3 weeks of milk bottles piling up there..

those so called oldies and there parents probably fought for this country through two world wars . have some respect and get s haircut

I know the old grey haired woman at the bottom of your street. I was speaking to her the other day.
She told me....
1. She hears your music in your car before she sees you.
2. Your gardens a mess and you don't grow veg!!

So get yer hair cut, polish yer shoes, Iron yer troosers (and pu' them up) and recycle yer rubbish!

Telt!

My Grandad lied about his age , to join up during WW1, as did so many other BOYS to go and fight in the war. He was 14 years old when he joined up from Lochgelly Fife . born in 1900 he would be 115 years old today . How many people are alive today from that war to vote ? My father was born in 1933 died in 2009 aged 76 . Never fought in world war 2 as he was only 6 years old when it started and 12 years old when it ended . He would be 81 years old by now . how many of his generation have voted ?

Fully agree. Although 114 surely. Don't mean to be pedantic.

Many of them, it seems, and almost all voting No. That still seems to me to be the real sadness of all this. People of their/my age were brought up in ways which played down Scottish identity and awareness (we didn't even get Scottish history at school - plenty about the Wars of the Roses, though, whatever they were!). It's very different now but the non-Scottishness of many old people will need to be overcome. I suppose time will help there.

The First World War can no longer be considered "Living History", as there are simply no longer any surviving veterans of that conflict, the last one passing away more than two years ago at the age of 110!!!

There are very few survivors of the Second World War as you are now pushing into the 90+ age range for that conflict!!!

The majority of your 66+ NO voters are actually what are referred to as the "Baby Boomer" generation, except for the fact that "age and experience" doesn't actually serve as either a qualitative or quantitative method of analysis, voting NO on account if concerns over pensions, on the other hand, was both a large and age-linked factor!!!

And age was overwhelmingly linked to a vote and also linked to a generation that remembers the last vestages of a British Empire, the Welfare State and of whom large numbers would have voted for the Conservatives and/or Unionists in the not to distant past!!!

I went to school in the 50's & 60's and I was taught Scottish history, so when did you go to school? (and I voted yes).

Oops yer right . lol

a more comprehensive analysis of the 55.35 v 44.65 result showed that no won every single age group with the exception of 25-39

Kind of screws up the Nats blame it on old peope nonsense

True - but my blame it on stupid people argument still stands.

Over the years I've found that the folk that disagree with me tend to be wrong, daft or vegetarian.

Or had an education!

Thats the thing with analytical data you can look at them, digest them and actually understand and take something from them or you can glaze over them twist them to suit yourselfor your viewpoint!!!

Nobody is blaming the "Old People", what I have stated is that the difference between the YES and NO vote was really so marginal, between all the age groups, that the massive swing towards NO that resulted in the 66+ grouping is and WAS the deciding point of the referendum!!!

You can analyse all you like because you will always come up with a reason to back your own argument. What about the trouble in Glasgow, which was a Yes vote area? I didn't see many old people causing any trouble there, the people causing the trouble were YOUNG 'NO' voters!

Also nationwide, how many 66+ people actually voted and how many -66 people? I could easily say that much more -66 people voted than 66+, therefore deduce that it was in fact the younger age group that decided the outcome.

There are a million people in Scotland over 60. The Yes vote only needed 200,000 more votes to hit 50 per cent. We know that the older generation backed No heavily, and we know there was a record turnout and a record number of postal votes (many of them the old and infirm).
It is possible to argue that the older generation was not key to the result, but the figures suggest the 60+ vote was hugely significant.

Which means there are over 4 million people under 60. not all of whom were able to vote due to being too young, however if only 200,000 more of them voted Yes, then it could well have been an independent Scotland we would have been looking forward to. To me, these figures suggest it was the under 60's whose vote was massively significant! I had a postal vote and voted Yes and I am over 60. Are you suggesting that the other 999,999 over 60's all voted No? It was a secret ballot remember!

How many No votes were declared by some on this site, do you think they were all over 60yrs old? If older people voted No, then it could be said they had a valid reason to, what valid reason did the under 60's have to vote No and there were many of them? So I am afraid your generalisation and finger pointing at the older people, is way off target and holds no credence whatsoever mate.

I have been banned from posting my views on AFTN but Mrs NTOC has asked me to express her views. She voted yes but is now relieved that there was a no victory.
She is saddened and frightened that in the last few days some of the yes camp have victimised an age group for their defeat and feels that posters like KK and NC personify the middle class,middle aged group who,if victorious,would have been heading vigilante groups to track down ageing no voters.
A couple of weeks ago she had a vision of a united Scotland but now sees an age group who, after ageism, would happily promote sexism,racism and religious intolerance to achieve their objectives.
A thoroughly intimidated Mrs NTOC feels it best just to run with KK and NC's pack and is preparing her Nigel Farage and Nick Griffin banners for the upcoming general election.
Mrs NTOC's views do not necessarily reflect the views of me or anyone else in the whole world.

Jesus wept.
I keep looking on this forum in the hope there will be some football related discussion going on but alas still this pish.

Is this forum dead or just a sign that no-one really gives a shit anymore?

Dear Mr Balls,
Mrs NTOC is wondering why you are looking for football comment on what is clearly a referendum thread. I am now away to convince her that you are one of the clever ones in the Labour party but I fear she thinks you are not very bright and is now even more attracted to Farage and Griffin.

she's right.

Fee Fi Fo Fum.....

She is always right.

With respect you are quite wrong. Two polls have been published post-referendum. One gave 27% of over-65s voting Yes and the other gave 34% voting Yes (see the analysis published today by Prof John Curtice on the Whatscotlandthinks website). Even if for convenience we split the difference we get 30.5% of over-65s voting Yes. There isn't really any doubt that they completely distorted the result. It is, as I said previously, sad that it hinged on this. If I was a young person now I would be quite angry about the whole thing.

You are correct to say there are more people under 60 than over 60. I don't think that was disputed here. But the over 60s group is the biggest population, age group by age group, by far. Look it up.
The statistic in the poll this week which stands out is that over 60s were the heaviest No backers. Therefore, of all the age groups listed, the most influential for No was the over 60s. This is not a theory or opinion. It is what the figures say. Can you not accept that? I accept that Scotland voted No, can you accept the independent analysis of the breakdown figures?
Interesting name new for your posts under this subject, by the way.

I'm sorry to disagree, but if you remember the Yes vote according to the polls, was neck and neck leading up to the vote and was even ahead. Why should you believe the polls now based on very low samples of people and I would guess a max of 1000 older people who were asked, when they were quite a bit wrong after the vote? The real vote when over 80% were 'sampled', the actual result was quite a bit different. Instead of 2 to 4% difference between Yes and No, based on a max of 2-3 thousand thousand people being asked, it turned out to be around 10% difference when 3.6 million actually voted.

You are being manipulated again by the media whose sole aim is to get a story preferably by getting one set of people against another, so they try and create it as they did with the George Square carry on where they tried to make out it was the Yes voters causing the hassle and of course it suits those who like to use the internet to accuse others. When we start to realise that we are all in the same boat and stop categorising each other, the world would be a better place.

Anyway, have a look at this article if you please? Check out how big the samples were.

http://www.heraldscotland.com/news/home-news/referendum-survey-suggests-a-slender-majority-of-young-people-voted-no.25407723

Dear Mr Ntoc...


Shut it ya dick.

Best wishes
Ed

It's not just oldies voting the wrong way that's the problem. They drive too slowly on the roads, they walk too slowley on the pavement, and dare I say it they often smell funny too.

Oh and if it's a queue at the post office you're looking for......

No, I think he means more like Pish and Dementia.

Anyhoo, look on the bright side, if aw these figures are right, surely it means that we're only one harsh winter away from another referendum.

If the vote had only been for people born in Scotland I think the outcome would have been different.As for the age shit I am 62 and was one of the first to getthe vote at 18.I have I have always voted SNP so don't give me the pish about older people bottling it.It was my generation that voted Winnie Ewing in in the 70's.

Whats done is done. Accept it!

Also accept that due to the wisdom of the majority of Scots London is not only the capital of England but also the capital of GB and UK. (tory speech today)

Who know the next thing we'll have to do is sign a petition to request that the promises made to us by the 3 amigos is honoured. Thats exactly whats happening.

What does this mean to Scottish fitba'....simple more money in pockets mean more folk go to see their local teams. In turn more money for teams to spend. Better players, more entertainment, better atmosphere at games. Aaargh!!!!!!